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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, pig in slop in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; A shame on the Redline boot. Normally, the fit and finish is top notch. I'm surprised......
  1. #616
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    A shame on the Redline boot. Normally, the fit and finish is top notch. I'm surprised...

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    Re: pig in slop

    Redline is normally a top shelf company, and i guess mistakes happen.


    As far as the clutch master cylinder.....I've had to pull mine long ago to send to spec to consider making some altercations to it better pressure build up but that never happened. If you get the swap completed and tested make a thread on it and im down to buy parts for it.

  3. #618
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    Re: pig in slop

    I already purchased my Tilton, fittings and crush washers.

  4. #619
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by ctsv247 View Post
    The shift boot is disappointing but I'm not surprised in the least that you aftermarket hood will need reworking to fit properly. Situation normal.....

    GM has long recognized the windshield base as a low pressure area and if i remember correctly they used it as a basis for building the cowl induction systems for the Camaro, the Chevelle and the 70's Trans Am.

    It seems very logical to vent the engine compartment through this area. As I think almost as much as you do, I figured that my daily driver won't be heating up the brakes enough to warranty using the brake cooling ducts, so I've wondered if it could make sense to reroute that incoming brake cooling duct air to the lower/front part of the engine bay in the hopes of creating a bit of air flow through there. It seems the under hood temps are a little high on the V1 for my taste and I haven't even lived through a summer with it yet.
    The following is the response I got from Redline. Apparently, it's a limitation of their sewing process. I still don't understand why they couldn't run two fake lines up through the top of the boot and do the structural stuff in black thread. In any event, I think they should have mentioned this prior to allowing people to order it. I can't be the most anal person out there--I bet they've had to take returns in the past for this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike @ RedlineGoods
    Hi

    that is normal. Since the boot you have ordered is tight on top, the sewing machine won't go all the way in - it's header has a certain size and it just won't get anywhere.

    This is NORMAL with the kind of boot that you have.

    Please just try to install it so that the shorter stitched edge faces the FRONT of the car. This way you will not be able to see it while you're in the driver's or passengers seat and it'll look perfect.
    Presently, my plan is to test fit the boot and see if there are any surprises in store (e.g. what Philistine described with his S2k boot). If something else pops up, it's going back.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    Fuzzy, what drawing software are you using?
    I'm not doing the drawings. I thought about it and decided to commission the work. MightyMouse is using Solidworks for all of these. The picture I provided of the inlet duct was simply a proof of concept--that a rectangle could be turned into a circle. The actual drawing is much more complicated. And it's still in the development stages--we're about to do a second generation prototype test fitting. Once we have the major coverage areas outlined and the bolt holes line up perfectly, I'm going to have a welder take a look at the pieces and provide input. Then there will be testing to verify that the air is going where it needs to go and that there's a clear and obvious advantage to installing these things. During this time, I will also be checking fitment against the V1 cast iron and V2 cast aluminum spindles, and making adjustments as necessary.



    Quote Originally Posted by verywhitedevil View Post
    I already purchased my Tilton, fittings and crush washers.
    That seems a little premature. Philistine doesn't have an ECD yet, and I wouldn't anticipate anything for several months yet. It's not his full time job.

  5. #620
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Presently, my plan is to test fit the boot and see if there are any surprises in store (e.g. what Philistine described with his S2k boot). If something else pops up, it's going back.
    If it fits with the missing "silver" threads in front you won't notice it. Redline should have thought it through instead of the obvious differences with the stitching.

    Here is the finished product from Redline when I installed it in my s2k:



    Again, they had the height and the hole patterns all wrong. I had to trim the base and hole punch the material for the correct alignment. I folded the tip down and sewed it tighter. The fitment wasn't what I was expecting but after a couple of hours of adjustments - I was happy.

    I'm not doing the drawings. I thought about it and decided to commission the work. MightyMouse is using Solidworks for all of these. The picture I provided of the inlet duct was simply a proof of concept--that a rectangle could be turned into a circle. The actual drawing is much more complicated. And it's still in the development stages--we're about to do a second generation prototype test fitting. Once we have the major coverage areas outlined and the bolt holes line up perfectly, I'm going to have a welder take a look at the pieces and provide input. Then there will be testing to verify that the air is going where it needs to go and that there's a clear and obvious advantage to installing these things. During this time, I will also be checking fitment against the V1 cast iron and V2 cast aluminum spindles, and making adjustments as necessary.
    My preference has always been Solidworks. I've used all different types. The major limitation with Solidworks is that it does not produce "g-code" for input to a CNC machine. Pro-E had that feature but they are now called CREO - I've dabbled with it.

    That seems a little premature. Philistine doesn't have an ECD yet, and I wouldn't anticipate anything for several months yet. It's not his full time job.
    It's hard to give an estimate when I actually get to the testing stage. The drawing package is complete and submitted to a machinist for fabrication. I work with the guy and he does this sorta stuff on the side. As Fuzzy mentioned, I don't do this full time so the testing phase will be a moving target sometime in March.

    I can say that I'm not sitting on the project. I need it for the same reasons many other people need it - resolve the suspected disengagement issues and provide faster shifting (smoother as well). I have to granny shift the V during normal driving and pump the clutch twice sometimes.

    This weekend is dedicated to replacing my stinky CPE fuel lines with the PTFE stuff. The fuel fumes creep into the cabin (no leaks) and make it unbearable. My garage smells like a gas station. Apparently it takes a couple months for the fumes to leach from the CPE lines...then it only gets stronger after that. I'm really kicking myself for not researching suitable fuel lines (suitable for a weekend dragster yes, not for a DD Caddy) from the beginning. At least I don't have to drop the cradle and tank for that!

  6. #621
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    Re: pig in slop

    I completely understand and don't expect anything soon, but i don't want to have to be searching and purchasing parts later. I like to have them on hand for the project. committed to the cause, that's all. I get the parts while I can.

  7. #622
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by verywhitedevil View Post
    I completely understand and don't expect anything soon, but i don't want to have to be searching and purchasing parts later. I like to have them on hand for the project. committed to the cause, that's all. I get the parts while I can.
    I hear you on that. I ordered the miscellaneous parts as soon as Philistine identified them, but I'm not ordering the Tilton 76-875 master until he's ready. You never know what might happen during testing, and I wouldn't want to get stuck with another piece of unnecessary equipment (see my pile of AN fittings, hose, and extra STS/V2 spindles).

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    This weekend is dedicated to replacing my stinky CPE fuel lines with the PTFE stuff. The fuel fumes creep into the cabin (no leaks) and make it unbearable. My garage smells like a gas station. Apparently it takes a couple months for the fumes to leach from the CPE lines...then it only gets stronger after that. I'm really kicking myself for not researching suitable fuel lines (suitable for a weekend dragster yes, not for a DD Caddy) from the beginning. At least I don't have to drop the cradle and tank for that!
    Thanks for making me feel less behind the curve that I actually am. I've been working a lot of weekends, due to scheduling at work, so I haven't had the free time to do much more than come home, eat, and sleep. I finally decided, after messing around for a couple of hours, that I'm not going into work today. So I should have some long overdue updates.

    Case in point: the bucket is finally finished. Many thanks to Philistine, who blazed this trail, making it much easier for others to follow and expand upon his ideas. It uses:

    The real question, which time can only answer, is how well the combination of yellow PTFE tape and Permatex Permashield will hold up. I used it to bulk up the DW300 outlets, the return line inlet, and improve the pickup tube connection to the overhead sprinkler (?) assembly.

    The only place where hose clamps were not necessary was on the Parker 801 to 10AN barbed fitting. That hose is seriously hard to stretch, and it required a bench vise with aluminum jaws to hold the 10AN barb fitting while I jammed it on. Copious amounts of lube and profanity help a lot.

    As you may notice, the 5/8" Parker 801 hose is partially kinked in the middle. However, even with this happening, there is virtually zero restriction (blowing through the 10AN bulkhead adapter). Compared to the 3/8" return line that I used earlier (which felt like blowing up a small party balloon), this is a quantum leap in efficiency.

    One thing to note: this line is so huge that you should clip the excess stub off the fuel level indicator float, or risk allowing the float to hit the line. You can also ensure that the line doesn't interfere with the float by gently rotating the barbed connector away from the float and tightening the nut down while you hold that angle.


    Unmodified float--notice how much that flattened wire sticks out


    Excess wire trimmed off and sanded down

    One thing that I hoped to improve on, and failed miserably at, was eliminating the need to wrench on the lines with the fuel bucket halfway in the tank. It's just not possible to eliminate that part of the process. In fact, whereas Philistine may have only needed to wrench on the return line, I will probably have to do this for the primary pump AND the return line. Stay tuned.

    ----------


    Underneath lid, suction side


    Underneath lid, float side


    Dual 3/8" DW300 pump feed lines


    Single 5/8" return line


    Side view, suction side. Primary pump hose is only slightly squashed by the ring clamp--the shadow in this picture makes it look much worse.


    Side view, float side. Note how the Parker 801 5/8" return line is slightly kinked. Also, appearances may be deceptive--you would probably rip the return line in half before it came off the barbed fitting. No clamp necessary there.


    Top view, showing dual -10AN feeds (either side) and single -10AN return (center) -- they can rotate freely

    Before I forget: Philistine's question regarding the possibility of eliminating the "horseshoe" portion of the lid really bore fruit. It opened up my options on fittings, and I can confidently say that this bucket is as solid as a rock without it. Case in point: while taking pictures, a little shim I had placed underneath the bucket to keep it from toppling slipped out, and the bucket fell off the table, lid-first. No damage whatsoever.

    Impressive considering this thing weighs 4.7 lbs!

  8. #623
    FuzzyLogic is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: pig in slop

    Hey Philistine--check out these stainless steel 1/2" barbed tee fittings I got! I think they're going to look and work well, next to the vacuum manifold.



    I also got around to installing the outer stubs on the axles. If I learned anything in the process, it's that achieving 60 ft-lbs is going to be a PITA when it comes time to attach each axle to the center section.



    Lastly...my power steering system part collection is almost complete! I feel like I'm in some kind of CTS-V parts hell...I'm sure that most people would love to be in my position, but I would like to get this stuff OUT and on the freaking car already.



    On the positive side, I will probably be the only CTS-V owner with a power steering system that has a remote bleeder line.

  9. #624
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    Re: pig in slop

    maybe so, but i am on board for the power steering upgrade. want to see how you do after fit and finish, before i step up to the plate on this one. going to end up selling my GC/FG2 setup and upgrade to the KW3/Swift setup. probably do this after I end up moving to san diego. I will be running the 10% UD ATI, so may have to check on the PS pulley diameter. seems like a must do for my upcoming drives in southern california.

  10. #625
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    Re: pig in slop

    The fuel bucket looks pretty good! I've been looking at the pics for some length. I noticed a few things/differences:

    1) You wrapped a worm clamp around the entire bucket to keep everything together. I used one for similar purposes but mine does not wrap the entire bottom. Instead I cut into the lower shell and routed it under the fuel pumps. This was to keep fuel under the fuel pumps and not lying on the bottom of the bucket and give the fuel pumps more support.
    2) Your discharge/return fitting angles look like it will promote strain when you attach your lines. The PTFE are not as flexible as the braided and pretty much have to be routed with very little strain on those fittings. You risk the bulkhead turning and loosening the nut on the underside. Or worse, you crack the fuel module.
    3) The 45 degree fitting on the discharge of the jet pump looks like it will interfere when the fuel module is compressed.
    4) Crimp butt connectors...I have a personal thing against them. They are applicable/suitable for this but I stay away when at all possible. Fuel can/will wick into the lines using those connectors however it will not get past the bulkhead connector. In my experience anything submersible gets soldered and sealed - which is why I use the pricey Raychem stuff. I don't even use crimp splices of any type in car audio - everything soldered followed by shrink tube or Raychem if exposed to the elements/fluid.

    All the other stuff looks pretty good so far! I hope you pinned out your electrical bulkhead connector with a continuity test and made a map. It helps when you fabricate the rest of the lines to the relay. I tested the entire system before I buttoned everything up - no DOA components etc. I like those 1/2" SS fittings - a little pricey compared to $0.75 but I'm sure the SS is lifetime stuff. I'm not knocking your choices, I go with a few of your suggestions and they have turned out pretty good so far.

    Hopefully this weekend I can get a prototype for the adapter on the clutch MC and begin rough fit testing - I'm calling it the "50 cent".
    verywhitedevil likes this.

  11. #626
    FuzzyLogic is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    1) You wrapped a worm clamp around the entire bucket to keep everything together. I used one for similar purposes but mine does not wrap the entire bottom. Instead I cut into the lower shell and routed it under the fuel pumps. This was to keep fuel under the fuel pumps and not lying on the bottom of the bucket and give the fuel pumps more support.
    I didn't copy your ring clamp implementation for two reasons: first, I wanted to minimize holes in the bottom half of the bucket, since holes reduce its fuel storage capacity. Less capacity equates to less run time on the secondary pump. Second, in test-fitting the bucket, I found that lockwire and a ring clamp were not necessary to keep the pumps stationary and away from the strainers. The hose exiting the bucket, the 90° nozzle on the strainers, and the FI6PB ring clamps pointing downward maintain that spacing. On the outlet side, I actually had the opposite problem--closing the lid was impossible. Ultimately, I had to shave down several things on the underside of the lid to get it partially closed.

















    In the end, I was never quite able to get that tab to close and lock, but I got really close. Closer than I was in the above picture.

    As you probably recall, I wanted to eliminate the ring clamp altogether, but when I put the halves together, the pumps were so tightly jammed in there that the plastic pop taps on the perimeter of the bucket looked like they were about to explode. So I added the ring clamp to take the stress off. The pumps aren't going anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    2) Your discharge/return fitting angles look like it will promote strain when you attach your lines. The PTFE are not as flexible as the braided and pretty much have to be routed with very little strain on those fittings. You risk the bulkhead turning and loosening the nut on the underside. Or worse, you crack the fuel module.
    I want to try to clamp the hoses near the top of the tank. I'm worried about the dynamic loading problem introduced once you start throwing your car over hills and around corners.

    Btw, the bulkhead fittings can point whichever way the hose wants. The outermost fittings can rotate 135-180 degrees, because I sanded down the plastic towers that house those spring-loaded metal struts. The underside nuts are cranked on as tight as I could make them with Permatex Permashield on the threads acting as a quasi-blue Loctite for added security.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    3) The 45 degree fitting on the discharge of the jet pump looks like it will interfere when the fuel module is compressed.
    I selected that fitting based on compression testing. It's close, though--and I am worried about the hose overstressing the plastic barb. I may wind up using a 60°.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    4) Crimp butt connectors...I have a personal thing against them. They are applicable/suitable for this but I stay away when at all possible. Fuel can/will wick into the lines using those connectors however it will not get past the bulkhead connector. In my experience anything submersible gets soldered and sealed - which is why I use the pricey Raychem stuff. I don't even use crimp splices of any type in car audio - everything soldered followed by shrink tube or Raychem if exposed to the elements/fluid.
    Thanks for mentioning that! I can't believe I forgot about the Raychem I bought (on your recommendation!). Before I install the bucket, I'll replace the crimp connectors with soldered joints and seal them with Raychem.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    All the other stuff looks pretty good so far! I hope you pinned out your electrical bulkhead connector with a continuity test and made a map. It helps when you fabricate the rest of the lines to the relay. I tested the entire system before I buttoned everything up - no DOA components etc. I like those 1/2" SS fittings - a little pricey compared to $0.75 but I'm sure the SS is lifetime stuff. I'm not knocking your choices, I go with a few of your suggestions and they have turned out pretty good so far.
    It's on my to-do list. I still have $600 worth of stuff to buy for the fuel system, so it's not going together anytime soon.

    There's the Aeromotive 13110 regulator, the JS Master Terminal Tool Kit, and crimpers for 22-1/0 AWG. I also need two 20' lengths of 1/0 AWG welding cable, assorted hardware, and a couple of Bussman CB187F Type III weatherproof circuit breakers (screw fuses) to set up a power distribution terminal in the back seat (also covers me for the audio system). The product line that I mentioned comes in everything from 25-150 amp ratings. FWIW, I've also been stocking up on 12' lengths of 1.5" diameter Thermo-Tec Express Sleeve. I don't want to leave anything to chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    Hopefully this weekend I can get a prototype for the adapter on the clutch MC and begin rough fit testing - I'm calling it the "50 cent".
    This weekend, I'm hoping to install the Geforce 9" IRS, but it's going to be a challenge because my welder--a guy with 30+ years of experience--had a heart attack last weekend and is on strict orders not to do any work. So I'm scrambling. Fortunately, I pulled an all-nighter at work and already have 47 hours on the clock (yeah, I'm salaried, but they still track that). If I'm lucky, I'll have the subframe down and depopulated tonight, and I'll be prepping the metal plates for welding tomorrow. If all goes according to plan (which it won't), I should be done by Saturday. So I have one day of schedule margin.

  12. #627
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    Re: pig in slop

    Bah, humbug. I have to go into work tomorrow. Hello overtime, goodbye Geforce 9" IRS for this weekend.

    On the positive side, I will have time to review PISNUOFF's shifters and maybe install the power steering system.

  13. #628
    ctsv247 is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: pig in slop

    You are an absolute V animal sir.

  14. #629
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    I didn't copy your ring clamp implementation for two reasons: first, I wanted to minimize holes in the bottom half of the bucket, since holes reduce its fuel storage capacity. Less capacity equates to less run time on the secondary pump. Second, in test-fitting the bucket, I found that lockwire and a ring clamp were not necessary to keep the pumps stationary and away from the strainers. The hose exiting the bucket, the 90° nozzle on the strainers, and the FI6PB ring clamps pointing downward maintain that spacing. On the outlet side, I actually had the opposite problem--closing the lid was impossible. Ultimately, I had to shave down several things on the underside of the lid to get it partially closed.


    As you probably recall, I wanted to eliminate the ring clamp altogether, but when I put the halves together, the pumps were so tightly jammed in there that the plastic pop taps on the perimeter of the bucket looked like they were about to explode. So I added the ring clamp to take the stress off. The pumps aren't going anywhere.
    I'm not quite convinced on your first reason. In order for the pumps to get suction, you need fuel in the bucket. There has to be a path for suction. The bucket is designed for a split tank - to take suction on both sides with a single pump. In order to accomplish that, it was designed to take suction within the bucket - a constant replenishing pool of fluid. The discharge of the single pump draws suction via Venturi effect with the jet pump and draws suction from the other side of the tank (driver's side). So if I'm following your reasoning, you are suggesting that while the primary pump is taking suction that somehow fuel would escape with additional exposures in the bucket? I would say that pump suction creates lower pressure and therefore draws more fuel into the bucket.

    I think we can agree that the return line discharging to the bucket is a good thing keeping the fuel pumps covered - the idea is to keep the pool of fluid within the bucket at a volume greater than the pumps can flow... to eliminate the possibility of cavitation. The return line into the bucket is additional coverage but is not the primary means of filling the bucket. The fuel around the bucket must have a path to enter otherwise the fuel pump(s) would sip the bucket dry in a matter of seconds.

    Your second reasoning is understandable however the worm clamp fastener looks like the fastening mechanism is on the bottom. If that is true, how is the bucket going to rest squarely on the surface of the tank? If it's on the bottom, I would swing the worm clamp around so the bucket can sit properly.

  15. #630
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    I'm not quite convinced on your first reason. In order for the pumps to get suction, you need fuel in the bucket. There has to be a path for suction. The bucket is designed for a split tank - to take suction on both sides with a single pump. In order to accomplish that, it was designed to take suction within the bucket - a constant replenishing pool of fluid. The discharge of the single pump draws suction via Venturi effect with the jet pump and draws suction from the other side of the tank (driver's side). So if I'm following your reasoning, you are suggesting that while the primary pump is taking suction that somehow fuel would escape with additional exposures in the bucket? I would say that pump suction creates lower pressure and therefore draws more fuel into the bucket.

    I think we can agree that the return line discharging to the bucket is a good thing keeping the fuel pumps covered - the idea is to keep the pool of fluid within the bucket at a volume greater than the pumps can flow... to eliminate the possibility of cavitation. The return line into the bucket is additional coverage but is not the primary means of filling the bucket. The fuel around the bucket must have a path to enter otherwise the fuel pump(s) would sip the bucket dry in a matter of seconds.
    We may be in violent agreement here. My thought is that the pump can only suck (through its strainer) about as much fuel as it pulls in from the tanks through the "sprinkler" assembly.

    In the OEM system, in periods of little demand, almost all fuel that isn't consumed by the engine is dumped back into the tank. If you look closely at the OEM regulator, I think you may come to the same conclusion as me--there's a fixed pinhole "leak" that returns a little bit of fuel to the bucket, but when system pressure gets too high, the regulator opens and sprays fuel out the side into the tank.

    Our aftermarket systems on the other hand do a much better job of keeping the bucket full, thanks to the fact that all unneeded fuel is returned to the bucket. So in periods of little demand, the bucket is overflowing. But the secondary pump isn't connected to the suction system--it simply draws from the bucket and feeds it to a Y-block elsewhere. If you only have one pump's worth of suction filling the bucket and two pump's worth of discharge emptying it, the level is going to go down.

    In my opinion, this probably gives your car a limited window of time before the bucket drains, the secondary pump sucks air, and the system cannot maintain that enhanced flowrate. (Aside: if you, like me, placed the primary strainer underneath the secondary strainer, the secondary pump will cavitate before the bucket is actually bone dry...) This inherent shortcoming might not show up during a WOT dyno pull, but under longer periods of demand, it might.

    All of this theorizing makes me wish for a tiny GoPro for the fuel bucket.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    Your second reasoning is understandable however the worm clamp fastener looks like the fastening mechanism is on the bottom. If that is true, how is the bucket going to rest squarely on the surface of the tank? If it's on the bottom, I would swing the worm clamp around so the bucket can sit properly.
    I wondered about that before, and I'm glad you mentioned it. I'll shift it to the side. Thanks!

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