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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, pig in slop in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Originally Posted by SevillianSTS You're saying that you can put V2 calipers on the front and keep the stock V1 ...
  1. #286
    FuzzyLogic is offline Banned
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by SevillianSTS View Post
    You're saying that you can put V2 calipers on the front and keep the stock V1 rotors, and the only modification is enlarging the 2 holes ?
    Yep.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by SevillianSTS View Post
    You're saying that you can put V2 calipers on the front and keep the stock V1 rotors, and the only modification is enlarging the 2 holes ?
    Correct. I am running that setup currently and have gone through two sets of pads and tracked the car 4 times with this setup. I love the extra braking it gives plus it looks sexy too.
    SevillianSTS likes this.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFast V View Post
    Correct. I am running that setup currently and have gone through two sets of pads and tracked the car 4 times with this setup. I love the extra braking it gives plus it looks sexy too.
    Are you running the fronts only, or rears too? If just the fronts, have you noticed any bias issues? I ask because when I installed STi Brembos on the front of my Legacy, there were immediate braking improvements noticed at the track. Two events later I installed the rears and the additional rear bias they brought to the car dramatically improved the lifepsan of the front pads. Different car, different weight class, different stock bias, but still curious just the same.

    (Sorry for the thread-jack)

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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by fweasel View Post
    Are you running the fronts only, or rears too? If just the fronts, have you noticed any bias issues? I ask because when I installed STi Brembos on the front of my Legacy, there were immediate braking improvements noticed at the track. Two events later I installed the rears and the additional rear bias they brought to the car dramatically improved the lifepsan of the front pads. Different car, different weight class, different stock bias, but still curious just the same.

    (Sorry for the thread-jack)
    Although I'm sure you're interested in OneFast V's impressions, we've already had the brake bias discussion on several threads and, the way that members describe it, there appears to be little discernible effect on the OEM bias. Keep in mind that the rear brakes on the V1 and the V2 are identical. The old discussion centered around the bias of the hydraulic systems of the two cars and how they might have differed. Judging by the results, it appears that the V1/V2 are very similar in this regard.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by Revshift View Post
    Actually, Delrin is quite cheap, but has poor compression set. This means that when it is deformed, it does not return to its original shape and size. If you hit Delrin with a hammer it will dent. This means that if you use it for bushings it will deform with use, and end up providing you with loose bushings, making the car feel sloppy. Most types of polyurethane, used for automotive bushings, have good compression set characteristics. This means it does return to its original shape after being deformed. Hit polyurethane with a hammer, no dent! Much more ideal for repeated suspension beatings.

    There is actually one way, other than generous amounts of lube, to remove the squeaking associated with poly bushings. You can step up the hardness to 75D, which has minimal flex. This level of hardness has a low enough coefficient of friction that it does not hold onto the steel as it rotates. This prevents the skipping action of the poly on the steel, which is the cause of the squeak on the softer bushings.

    Back on topic though. That looks like a well thought out fuel system, lots of people would have just skipped right over the fuel cooling issue, and been confused when the car started stuttering in the hot weather. It should serve you well.
    This makes me wonder about the life of my Delrin inserts on the subframe. At the time it was the only thing on the market. The metal washer distorts from the suggested torque value that many have reported as well. My thoughts are that it is fine but wonder how it compares with the poly-x subframe bushings. Not sure the material properties of Delrin inserts but these are somewhat flexible, charcoal color not the typical stiff white stuff like used with kitchen cutting boards.

    Regarding the fuel system - I still have to crank it twice. I charged the fuel lines with both pumps and it still takes two tries. My neighbor has a triple pumper fuel system with new fuel lines and it does the exact same thing. A few times it's stuck trying to start and gotta turn it off and back on. Too much fuel perhaps? Oh well, it's something to focus on. Two tries still works like a charm though. It could be something as simple as getting new injectors but not venturing down that path till I have HPTuners Pro to groom the fuel maps etc.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by Revshift View Post
    There is actually one way, other than generous amounts of lube, to remove the squeaking associated with poly bushings. You can step up the hardness to 75D, which has minimal flex. This level of hardness has a low enough coefficient of friction that it does not hold onto the steel as it rotates. This prevents the skipping action of the poly on the steel, which is the cause of the squeak on the softer bushings.
    I can't see a downside to 75D control arm bushings. Can you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revshift View Post
    Back on topic though. That looks like a well thought out fuel system, lots of people would have just skipped right over the fuel cooling issue, and been confused when the car started stuttering in the hot weather. It should serve you well.
    Any idea how hot fuel actually gets in a double/triple pump system over the course of a track day? Are most cooling systems installed on the feed or return loop?

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    Regarding the fuel system - I still have to crank it twice. I charged the fuel lines with both pumps and it still takes two tries. My neighbor has a triple pumper fuel system with new fuel lines and it does the exact same thing. A few times it's stuck trying to start and gotta turn it off and back on. Too much fuel perhaps? Oh well, it's something to focus on. Two tries still works like a charm though. It could be something as simple as getting new injectors but not venturing down that path till I have HPTuners Pro to groom the fuel maps etc.
    Have you looked at your fuel pressure before you turn the key?

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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Have you looked at your fuel pressure before you turn the key?
    1. Turn the key, pump charges line for ~5 secs. Pressure gauge reads 0 psi
    2. Turn secondary pump on manually, charges line continuously. Pressure reads ~58 psi.
    3. Turn secondary pump off. Pressure reads 0 psi.
    4. At this point with the key in the ignition, no pumps are running. Pressure reads 0 psi.

    I got it start 1st attempt:
    1. Turn key on, primary pump charges then turns off after 5 sec.
    2. Manually turn on secondary pump for 5 sec.
    3 Turn off secondary pump.
    4 Turn key for ignition, fires right up!

    I think the primary pump logics are insufficient for the increased volume. Doubling the time priming the line seems to be the trick. (I tried turning it over while secondary priming and charging to 58 psi - fail, still took two tries).

    My push button secondary pump is looking more attractive huh???

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    FuzzyLogic is offline Banned
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    Re: pig in slop

    Honestly, it sounds like you need a check valve (or two). Your fuel lines shouldn't be completely draining after you shut off the engine.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Honestly, it sounds like you need a check valve (or two). Your fuel lines shouldn't be completely draining after you shut off the engine.
    I didn't want to introduce a failure point (check valve). I don't believe the stock system had one. I just think it needs double the time to properly charge (I understand a check valve would keep the fuel in the lines). Anyhow, it gives you something to think about incorporating into your system.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    I didn't want to introduce a failure point (check valve). I don't believe the stock system had one. I just think it needs double the time to properly charge (I understand a check valve would keep the fuel in the lines). Anyhow, it gives you something to think about incorporating into your system.
    Understandable. What I would've suggested was a service loop outside the bucket (accessible from the fuel door) with a single check valve. That way, a failed CV would be unlikely to leave you stranded. According to an unclassified 2003 nuclear power plant study on check valve failure modes (see Table 5-1), 71 out of 94 CV failures fell into the general, "failure to close" or "failure to remain closed" categories. About 20% of the time, FOD contamination or chemical corrosion caused the CV to jam shut. If that CV were located only on the secondary pump, both failure modes would result in a vehicle that was driveable except under boosted conditions where the second pump was necessary to maintain pressure.

    Out of curiosity, did you ever consider including a "low fuel pressure" light? I poked around on Summit Racing and couldn't find anything that would trigger off the 1/8" NPT on the regulator.

    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    I don't believe the stock system had one.
    Edit: on a whim, I pulled apart my spare bucket and bam--found a check valve on the 30 degree hose barb. In your picture, below, it's inside the barbed connector attached to the white flex hose. By the way, do you know what the straight plastic tube that connects to the little box on top of the bucket is for? I'm still having problems understanding how this system pulls fuel from the tank, or even gets it to the fuel rails. There's nothing stopping the flow of fuel back into the tank. If you were to blow into the barb with the check valve (white line), you'd get nowhere. Blowing into the barb with the black line puts air through the feed hose that goes into the tank and the plastic tube that goes to nowhere (although there are a pair of wires going to a non-descript plastic block). Putting a finger over the plastic tube puts all of the air into the line headed toward the fuel tank. Putting fingers over both the tube and the tank feed line equals no flow whatsoever. So either my check valve is jammed shut, or I can't exert enough pressure to open it. I may try an air compressor next.


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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Out of curiosity, did you ever consider including a "low fuel pressure" light? I poked around on Summit Racing and couldn't find anything that would trigger off the 1/8" NPT on the regulator.
    No or should I say I considered it but decided not to include a low pressure light. I'm gearing towards installing the PLX DM6 and with that I can daisy-chain several inputs into a single gauge. I plan to include a wideband AFR and adding a fuel pressure module. It will go where the ashtray is - got materials to begin fabrication for the gauge location. I don't plan to begin this until forced induction comes in.


    Edit: on a whim, I pulled apart my spare bucket and bam--found a check valve on the 30 degree hose barb. In your picture, below, it's inside the barbed connector attached to the white flex hose. By the way, do you know what the straight plastic tube that connects to the little box on top of the bucket is for? I'm still having problems understanding how this system pulls fuel from the tank, or even gets it to the fuel rails. There's nothing stopping the flow of fuel back into the tank. If you were to blow into the barb with the check valve (white line), you'd get nowhere. Blowing into the barb with the black line puts air through the feed hose that goes into the tank and the plastic tube that goes to nowhere (although there are a pair of wires going to a non-descript plastic block). Putting a finger over the plastic tube puts all of the air into the line headed toward the fuel tank. Putting fingers over both the tube and the tank feed line equals no flow whatsoever. So either my check valve is jammed shut, or I can't exert enough pressure to open it. I may try an air compressor next.
    The only thing I can say is that's the jet pump. It works by Venturi. You won't be able to blow into it and find anything of value. As fluid flows into the Venturi, it creates a low pressure zone and therefore takes suction from that line which is connected to the other side of the tank. It works off the discharge flow from the primary pump. I might consider a check valve around the filter location - but later.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Ok here's some basic stuff on the fuel pump relays and tools I find essential.



    Left to right:
    1. Depinning kit - link
    2. Delphi crimping tool for common molex connectors - link
    3. Crimper, 2-8awg non-insulated - link

    Here's the basics on the relay for the secondary pump:






    From my notes:
    30 - 10awg for power from the battery, incorporate inline fuse
    87 - 14awg for power to secondary fuel pump
    85 - 10awg chassis ground, combine relay ground and fuel pump ground
    87a - not used
    86 - switched, from ignition, trigger wire

    So here's some wiring snapshots:
    Wired up port 30 (goes to the battery)


    It's upside down but same port 30 connection (beer glass to the left )


    Wire them all up and looks like this:




    The completed relay is installed to the far right...next to the Racetronix fuel pump relay (left). A lot of what you see in this pic is wire management - up to the hands of the installer.


    Almost forgot, here is where I pull ignition power from (switched, port 86). Look closely and you can see the tiny red arrow:


    That's just basic stuff but perhaps a refresher for some and learning for others.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Man, I need a garage and a huge white board. That's an awesome setup you have there.

    Anyway, based on your notes, I'm confused--the text says that your diagram is for the secondary pump, but your trigger is the ignition system. In this case, wouldn't your trigger be the Hobbs switch (with the pushbutton as a bypass)? I'm asking these questions for conversation's sake, mostly--once I get all of the parts in hand, I'll naturally go through the documentation on the relay and decide how I want to handle the system implementation. It'd be cool to turn on the pumps when I open the driver's side door (like some cars do), but it'd unnecessarily complicate the design.

    Also, I understand what you were saying about the Venturi effect. Where I get hung up is that you have to have flow past the branch that you want to draw suction from. That CV on the stock bucket is so hard to actuate that (assuming it isn't broken on this extra bucket of mine) it's easy to imagine fuel being driven directly back into the fuel tank instead of opening the valve. But for all I know, the flow resistance into those feeder lines in the fuel tank is high enough to build enough pressure to open the CV.

    Also, by the way, I found that the barbed connections on the bucket all require 3/8" line. So either I have to use accordion flex hose like you did, or run 3/8" Gates submersible hose. 5/16" won't fit. I'd love to do the 3/8" Gates option, but the problem is that the barbed outlets of the fuel pumps are a hair too narrow for it. What do you think of this for long term use: wrap each DW300 outlet barb with 4-5 layers of yellow, double-density PTFE tape (rated for gas/fuel), press fit 3/8" Gates hose, and double T-bolt clamp each hose connection?

  14. #299
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Man, I need a garage and a huge white board. That's an awesome setup you have there.

    Anyway, based on your notes, I'm confused--the text says that your diagram is for the secondary pump, but your trigger is the ignition system. In this case, wouldn't your trigger be the Hobbs switch (with the pushbutton as a bypass)? I'm asking these questions for conversation's sake, mostly--once I get all of the parts in hand, I'll naturally go through the documentation on the relay and decide how I want to handle the system implementation. It'd be cool to turn on the pumps when I open the driver's side door (like some cars do), but it'd unnecessarily complicate the design.
    Yeah the ignition can serve to run the secondary full time (not recommended) or Hobbs switch. In my case it's going to a switch for over-ride and for normal trigger being the Hobbs which still needs power from the ignition when it activates (so both). It gets slightly more complicated but I can fill you in when you get to that point.

    Also, I understand what you were saying about the Venturi effect. Where I get hung up is that you have to have flow past the branch that you want to draw suction from. That CV on the stock bucket is so hard to actuate that (assuming it isn't broken on this extra bucket of mine) it's easy to imagine fuel being driven directly back into the fuel tank instead of opening the valve and flowing past the feed line. But for all I know, the flow resistance into those feeder lines in the fuel tank is high enough to build enough pressure to open the valve.
    Absolutely no clue on that one. I'm going to guess 50psi. At that pressure perhaps the Venturi effect is efficient to draw suction on the other side of the tank.

    Also, by the way, I found that the barbed connections on the bucket all require 3/8" line. So either I use flex hose like you did, or run 3/8" Gates submersible hose. 5/16" won't fit. I'd love to do the 3/8" Gates option, but the problem is that the barbed outlets of the fuel pumps are a hair too narrow for it. What do you think of this for long term use: wrap each DW300 outlet barb with 4-5 layers of yellow, double-density PTFE tape (rated for gas/fuel), press fit 3/8" Gates hose, and double T-bolt clamp each hose connection?
    Hmm, I know what you are saying. Your fittings strayed from using the flex line. The problem is, this isn't a fuel hangar. You need a compact design for the bucket - as small a footprint as possible to squeeze it into the fuel tank. I'm biased on this because I know how the fuel pressure and volume will settle once the fluid leaves the tank and journeys to the fuel rails. I would use the gates 3/8" on the return port and flex on everything else. You are right, the flex isn't going to fit on the 3/8" barbs but it will on the 5/16" barbs. I squeezed a 5/16" submersible fuel hose (not flex) on a 3/8" barb and clamped it but I would not do it in reverse even with double clamps.

    Many cases of lines blowing right off the fitting with larger hose on smaller barb fitting.

    I know that the flex line keeps the same ID with sharp bends but I don't know if the gates hose can bend and keep the same ID - I'm guessing not. It's a small point but the larger point is fitting the fuel module into the bucket. I didn't mean to undersell how difficult it was for me to stuff my fuel module design in there - it was a major PITA!

    ***Edit***
    Thanks on the whiteboard comment. Yeah I use that for all my projects, very handy! I do a ton of projects, anywhere from designing ultrasonic a,b,c scans, motorization, home projects with interior design, custom movie theater basements...and nuclear core design - it all starts with the white board.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Here is the additional info on the rest of the wiring:



    Basically, that will give you an LED light when second pump energizes, push button override and Hobbs pressure activation on the secondary fuel pump.

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