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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, pig in slop in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Originally Posted by liqidvenom If i have to pull the trans 12 times i would have stopped putting the same ...
  1. #241
    FuzzyLogic is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by liqidvenom View Post
    If i have to pull the trans 12 times i would have stopped putting the same old t56 back in.
    It wasn't the fault of the transmission or the clutch. It was the dude turning the wrenches that needed his head examined.

    The first 6 times were to figure out what forum members and the shops I called around the country couldn't tell me--that pressure plate torque specs are application specific. Back then, it was extreme frustration that lead me to torque down one bolt more than the others (instead of following the star pattern)--and that's when I saw some of the fingers sticking out further than the others. Eureka!

    By the way, a whole bunch of the other -10AN fittings came in. My bucket is going to be more cramped than Philistine's . . . hoo boy.

  2. #242
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    Re: pig in slop

    Everything Fuzzy posted has given me an idea based on my Suburbans dual tank fuel system. I'll get more in depth when I get home and am able to more thoroughly investigate the idea.

  3. #243
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    I recommend the PowerTorque CS2529. I have the Tick shim three-pack, but I've never needed it. You might want to hold off on that until you get a better slave and measure. Unless you have $40 to burn on top of the $130 the slave will cost you.
    Found a link regarding my clutch engagement: Link I guess I could order a new slave but want to give it a test drive first to be sure. I think the one you linked is for a C6 Vette and the stroke on it is too much for this twin clutch beast. Thanks for the link with the measurements, definitely going to measure it and get it right if/when I drop the transmission. Even though I bled and bled, the clutch still feels a little soft - idk. Just to be sure I wasn't over-thinking it, asked the wife to come down and she said the same thing - feels like almost no resistance.

    I used the Motive bleeder, bottle, and associated attachments and cycled over and over at 20psi. I wonder if there is a massive air bubble that I can't get out.

    ----------

    By the way, GulfM3 over on LS1Tech has been asking me questions about the fuel system build. In particular, he wants to know what we think the chances are of sucking the bucket dry or causing cavitation.
    1)The primary pump takes suction from the bucket. The discharge from the primary pump goes into a jet pump and creates a Venturi effect. The result of the Venturi effect causes suction on the line joining the jet pump which is connected to the other side of the tank and takes suction there. At this point you have suction from the bucket, passenger side, and suction from the driver side - consider the jet pump a Y-connector. From the jet pump, you have a single exit that joins to the ADDED manifold block in an available discharge port.

    2) The secondary pump (extra pump) takes suction from the bucket. It discharges directly into the ADDED manifold block in an available discharge port.

    At this point you have a common header. All the fluid will exit the fuel tank into the fuel supply line. It travels to the fuel rails. As it exits the fuel rails, it enters the regulator. The regulator keeps the supply line pressurized - in my case 58psi. The extra fuel dumps into the return line from the regulator. It then follows the return line and enters the fuel module. The return fuel then follows the added EFI fuel hose that connects the return directly into the bucket. So all return fuel enters the bucket and covers the fuel pump(s) right where they both take suction.

    Ok, that explains the entire path of the fuel with this mod. It does not answer if there will be cavitation if the pumps suck in some air. However, these DW300 pumps are MEDIUM size pumps. Conservatively, just one pump is enough to deliver the fuel needs of ~500whp. The secondary pump is therefore not needed until you reach either a) drop in fuel pressure b)Hobbs pressure switch sensing boost if forced inducted.

    In my case, boost so I have a Hobbs pressure switch at 2psi activation in which the secondary pump will start. At this point with 2 pumps activated, there is a considerable amount of suction in the fuel bucket. Keep in mind that the primary is also taking suction from the driver's side via jet pump. There is also an increase in flow of fuel. So now you are worried about pressure and volume. The regulator should be doing it's job keeping pressure, the volume should be greatly increased with 2 pumps running - so much that you will have excess fuel and return that fuel right back to the fuel bucket which keeps the pump(s) covered and protected from cavitation.

    I'm not going to go into the math - just simply the flow path and how it operates. With all the stuff I just wrote above, it basically says this entire design was about increasing volume at constant pressure and ensuring the fuel bucket stays wet with a dedicated return directly into the bucket. These pumps are not aggressive and mitigate excessive suction in the bucket and IMHO much better than dropping in a whopper of a fuel pump that runs constantly and building up stupid heat.

    Do I think there will be cavitation - no I do not, absolutely not. Boosted, I would not WOT with a 1/4 tank or take it to auto-x, track, drag etc. - chances are much higher to cause cavitation because the gas is swishing all over the place. I would totally feel safe 1/4 tank cruising on the interstate and conveniently find a gas station with no worries.

    That aside, one thing that I like about this build is the greatly improved fuel return / cooling system. If I'm deducing the function of the OEM regulator correctly, the unit has a tiny, always-open port (pictured below) that admits a small stream of fuel into the bucket.
    I don't know about the cooling with the return system. I read a lot of fuel mods on Viper forums and some import stuff and the benefits and it's mixed reaction. Some say cooler, some say creates more heat. The heat which some debate come from returning at the fuel rails which there is some heat rejection. I think the real benefit which everyone and their cousin agrees...much better fuel regulation and far easier and reliable tuning!

    The OEM fuel regulation is like running on a spare tire with high horsepower or boosted applications. The V1's in the realm of other platforms that are heavily modded are infants and often passed in favor of something mod friendly. Perfect example, my wife's FRS already has multiple turbo bolt on kits with complete fuel modifications from some of the top companies and it's only been in U.S. production for 1yr. No thinking, no Home Depot trips, no 'come-n-go' DIY fabricators, just bolt it on and go!

  4. #244
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    The first 6 times were to figure out what forum members and the shops I called around the country couldn't tell me--that pressure plate torque specs are application specific.
    This is phuckin BS tribal knowledge if it's true. I'm dropping the transmission tomorrow and taking measurements. I guess I'm a little pissed if I'm the last to know this very important nugget. I started a thread to investigate since no change in bleeding.

    To answer your question on my exhaust...it's all SS and the headers are wrapped, no expensive coating anywhere.

    Back to YOUR fuel system...that expensive Russell manifold looks just as bulky as the cheap Home Depot manifold. Not saying bad/good just doesn't seem to be any benefit with your choice since size is an issue and the height as it compresses to fit in the tank. I'm interested how you're going to wire it all...haha. I have some photos where I wired my relays and customized a lot of the Racetronix stuff to run in parallel. I did a lot of testing with the logics before I installed and meticulously wired it all up.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    Back to YOUR fuel system...that expensive Russell manifold looks just as bulky as the cheap Home Depot manifold. Not saying bad/good just doesn't seem to be any benefit with your choice since size is an issue and the height as it compresses to fit in the tank. I'm interested how you're going to wire it all...haha. I have some photos where I wired my relays and customized a lot of the Racetronix stuff to run in parallel. I did a lot of testing with the logics before I installed and meticulously wired it all up.
    I'm not sure I'd call $19 expensive, but okay. Although I agree that the Russell 650420 is just as bulky as (if not more so) the Home Depot manifold, it has 10AN ports instead of 1/4" NPT ports. Pictured below is the same 5/16" barb to 1/4" NPT adapter that you have. Although you can't see it in the picture, you can fit the outer 1/4" NPT threads into the inner diameter of the 10AN fittings and tubing! This stuff rivals garden hose... having this much margin makes me want to wring my hands and do my evil scientist laugh.



    I'm actually not going to use those blue fittings because the 8mm to 10AN barbs I ordered will fit directly into the Y block.

    *evil cackle*

  6. #246
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    Re: pig in slop

    Interesting...but I feel that you are focusing too much on restriction with the exit of the fuel as it goes into the common header (fuel supply). I'm not going to go into fluid dynamics but you can think of it as an orifice...volume will stabilize very shortly at the exit as it enters the main fuel supply as well as pressure etc.

    I'm actually happy that you are taking a different approach with the fittings - just saying to focus on the dollar instead of the dime.

  7. #247
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    Interesting...but I feel that you are focusing too much on restriction with the exit of the fuel as it goes into the common header (fuel supply). I'm not going to go into fluid dynamics but you can think of it as an orifice...volume will stabilize very shortly at the exit as it enters the main fuel supply as well as pressure etc.

    I'm actually happy that you are taking a different approach with the fittings - just saying to focus on the dollar instead of the dime.
    Restriction is a concern, but it's not my primary concern. Based on many pages of emails I've had with some reticent CTS-V owners (the ones that spent $3,000+ experimenting with V1 fuel systems and $60,000+ on V1 upgrades), I believe that twin DW300s will not be able to handle cog-overdriven supercharger power transients without the aid of a significant quantity of pressurized fuel in the feed lines.

    What worked for most of the guys was feeding a 1-2 liter surge tank, which was equipped with an Aeromotive 11104 Eliminator (550 lph) or equivalent pump, with twin in-tank pumps through a 8AN feed and 6AN return. So, we know that 8AN line supports 1/2" ID hose. To find the volume of fuel stored by a system with 12 feet of 8AN hose and a 1-2 liter surge tank, we do the following: pi*(0.5^2)*12*12 = 133 cubic inches in the lines --> 2.18 liters. 2.18 liters plus one or two extra liters in the surge tank equals 3.18 or 4.18 liters total. By contrast, my 12AN system (with no surge tank) will use 3/4" ID hose and therefore holds: pi*(0.75^2)*12*12 = 254 cubic inches --> 254 cubic inches or 4.16 liters total.

    So, I have a plan. Although it may have seemed haphazard due to my poor communication earlier, hopefully you can see that there is a technical justification for my parts selection. Whether or not it's a good enough justification remains to be seen. Fingers crossed.

  8. #248
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Restriction is a concern, but it's not my primary concern. Based on many pages of emails I've had with some reticent CTS-V owners (the ones that spent $3,000+ experimenting with V1 fuel systems and $60,000+ on V1 upgrades), I believe that twin DW300s will not be able to handle cog-overdriven supercharger power transients without the aid of a significant quantity of pressurized fuel in the feed lines. If 12AN line can't store enough, I'm going to have to add additional pressurized fuel volume by installing a 1-2 liter surge tank, fed by the twin DW300s, and equipped with an Aeromotive 11104 Eliminator (550 LPH) fuel pump.

    I know I sound like I've lost my marbles, but having design details on the many failed fueling systems these guys went through to make their power levels it a lot clearer.
    I don't have any real data on this...not for awhile to even comment. My build will be primary for street and secondary for show...track, drag etc. I know that I have friends close by that tear up their transmissions and blow engines regularly with all the drag they do - I just watch.

    They are running over 1kwhp and I typically see 3 pumps in there at minimum. Keep in mind that these are not street cars.

  9. #249
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    Re: pig in slop

    A couple of comments and questions here...

    1) I've disassembled everything. For those using these pics as a guide for changing your fuel pump, etc... on that same APE site, you'll NEED those flex hoses. At least 1 8-inch it looks like. I know some of the guys wrote you can pop these off with a flathead... but save yourself the stabs in the hand, and just cut and replace em.

    2) I received Kit 11 from APE (Ordered the flex hoses from them as well). I noticed the new fuel sock, etc. However, on the stock fuel sock, you'll notice its got the small fuel pump holding plastic piece which goes INSIDE the sock it seems. Here, I see you guys used worm clamps to hold down TWO pumps, but for single pumps... They would move too much using just kit 11 without some sort of clamping setup. I'm planning on spraying the sock I have with carb cleaner, and re-using for solidity. Any ideas on using kit 11 with a single pump, especially considering kit 11's sock doesn't just drop into the bucket. The interior of the bucket would have to be dremel'd.

    3) Purchased the DW300 kit from ebay, and it came with an electrical connector for the pump. Seems to be the same as the stock OEM, and didn't see the need to change it. (Although I seem to be having an electrical issue, this entire fuel pump assembly is from another V, and I'm working on it before removing the one in my car now)

    I plan on cutting \ drilling some holes at the front of the bucket to allow more flow. I read a bit about questions on cavitation and saw this:
    http://ls1tech.com/forums/17362136-post7.html

    Quote Originally Posted by tommycompton View Post
    I've been running a aeromotive 340 for 2 seasons without incident. When i first installed it, it would starve if the tank was low (around 1/8 th tank) and accelerating. I drilled some extra holes in the basket in the top portion towards the front . Haven't had a problem since, I try not to let it go below a 1/4 tank.
    Figured this was how I'd go.

    4) Does anyone have any paperwork or guide for the Racetronix harness? (or did I miss it on one of these pages?) Honestly looks pretty straight forward, but trying to figure out how to add the additional ground I bought optional. Would feel more comfortable with instructional, although will complete either way.

    [2006 CTS-V - "The Vee Baby Seamus"] - 372rwhp / 361rwtq
    Pacesetters | Off Road Adapters | Cutouts | Stock Airbox | Stock Catback
    BMR AWK | CS Diff Block | Short Shifter | UMI MM | Revshift TM

  10. #250
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    Re: pig in slop

    1) Yeah purchase all new flex hoses, do not reuse any of the stock flex hoses. I used a heat gun and worm clamps on the new flexible hoses.

    2) If you're just dropping in another pump, use the stock filter and not the one from APE. I used kit #11 because I was fitting in 2 pumps. Yeah, I hacked away a lot of the bucket to fit it in there.

    3) The DW300 electrical wires come wtih 16awg IIRC. You can augment that by using different connectors and beefing up the wiring to 14awg but I didn't because the pumps are MEDIUM duty - didn't see the need to beef it up.

    4) In this thread is I mounted the Racetronix harness and showed how I routed it. Let me know if you need more detail - I can give you direction, just need to know what you need.

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    Re: pig in slop

    I wouldn't drill holes in the bucket. It's already got enough holes to flood when you've got a nearly full tank of gas. I'm planning on doing the opposite of Tommy--I'll be trying to seal the bucket up to hold the fuel in.

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    Re: pig in slop

    As requested, here's how I routed the Racetronix hotwire:

    I had the cradle removed so I was able to make a clean install - mounted it along side the frame where it is out of the way.


    What you see here are 2 relays, one for each pump. You should only have 1 relay if a single hotwire kit. The wire is pretty easy to route at this point. The photo doesn't show the rest but you just follow the other wires already there - up and over onto the gas tank. Make all your necessary connections (plug and play).


    Here is where you exit the fuel tank - just follow the fuel lines.







    I routed mine to the battery.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Didn't you use nut inserts/press inserts/rivet nuts to attach those cable/hose hangers to the frame rails?

    If so, could you comment on what product you liked and why?

  14. #254
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Didn't you use nut inserts/press inserts/rivet nuts to attach those cable/hose hangers to the frame rails?

    If so, could you comment on what product you liked and why?
    I used the following from Jegs:

    rivet nuts -link
    rivet nut and tool kit -link
    extra rivet nuts - link
    -8AN cushion clamps - link
    -6AN cushion clamps - link
    9/32" drill bit (for the 10-32 rivet nuts)
    25/64" drill bit (for the 1/4-20 rivet nuts)

    The rivet nuts give a much cleaner install so you can use a threaded fastener instead of sheet metal screws. The kit comes with a handful of different sizes to get you started but I ordered extra. The inserts lock in there very nicely. I recommend using a center punch and black oxide coated bit - forget Titanium & Cobalt BS.
    FuzzyLogic likes this.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Philistine, when you mentioned rivet nuts earlier and posted a link for the Jegs kit, I was hoping that I wouldn't need to buy another tool, but now that I've looked at this a little more, I think the kit will come in handy for more than just this project. I already have plenty of bits, but I ordered the kit, 10AN and 12AN clamps, and a couple extra packs of rivet nuts. If I go crazy, I'll probably only need a half-dozen per side.

    Supposedly, my huge order from FrozenBoost is coming in on Monday (not sure if I believe that). At that point, things should start moving. I still need the regulator, filter, and rails, I'll be able to construct the bucket and measure/cut/finish the fuel lines. I'll probably take that opportunity to do my POR15 underbody coating and install the rivet nuts.

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