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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, pig in slop in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Originally Posted by philistine Looks like we'll be shopping for engines/FI about the same time perhaps. I finally fired it ...
  1. #196
    FuzzyLogic is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    Looks like we'll be shopping for engines/FI about the same time perhaps.

    I finally fired it up! I kept it at idle to check for leaks. All the wiring works and the secondary pump LED switch and indicator works like a charm. The regulator is pre-set to 40psi and IIRC these engines are supposed to receive 58psi - please correct me if I'm wrong. BTW, NO LEAKS!

    The DW300 have a high pitch sound when they wind up but I have the back seat out and trap door open so it's louder and because I'm listening for it. I guess I can do a follow up post on the wiring and relays since it passed! I can put away my CO2 bottles - you never know.

    Time for some beer drinking...
    58 PSI is correct. With regards to the high pitched sound, once you close the door, the amount of sound should drop significantly. Add a layer of Luxury Liner Pro before you put the seat bottom down (and 1-2 layers of b-Quiet to prevent vibration from the drivetrain coupling into the cabin) and it'll nearly eliminate fuel pump noise. I hear my Walbro 255 LPH more through the sides of the car (through "flanking paths") than through the seat now.

    I'm surprised that you didn't take the opportunity to set the regulator to 58 PSI during your test run (when the fuel system was out of the car). That's what I plan on doing... I don't want to risk inducing detonation upon system initialization.

    Glad that you're taking time to celebrate. I find it hard to kick back and rest. Congratulations--I wish I could see your reaction when you drive! Oh, and . . . beware of the alignment. You'll probably be fine in dry weather, but add some water or snow on the road, and your crazy rear toe numbers are going to make it hard to control the car.
    philistine likes this.

  2. #197
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    Re: pig in slop

    Last time I checked fuel pressure with the engine running perfect, pressure was ~60psi, so 58 sounds dead nuts.
    Congrats on a solid setup. With all the pages here, a bit more than beer drinking is what I'd be doing. I'd wake up wearing parts, TBH. LOL
    philistine likes this.

    [2006 CTS-V - "The Vee Baby Seamus"] - 372rwhp / 361rwtq
    Pacesetters | Off Road Adapters | Cutouts | Stock Airbox | Stock Catback
    BMR AWK | CS Diff Block | Short Shifter | UMI MM | Revshift TM

  3. #198
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    Re: pig in slop

    Here is a video of the start-up (un-edited):


  4. #199
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    Re: pig in slop

    Any idea why your fuel pressure increased by almost 5 PSI when you had the second pump on? For almost two months, I've been quietly pondering the question, "does adding a second pump in parallel effectively create a leak in the feed line?" Now I'm almost certain I should buy a check valve. From the ad:

    "These Aeromotive high-flow one-way check valves are designed to prevent back-flow with minimal pressure drop. [...] They're ideal for use when preventing drainback after the fuel pump is turned off, or when dual pumps are employed and both pumps will not always be running together."

    Also, based on the amount of effort it took to shift gears, it looks like you're not done bleeding yet. Also, is your exhaust ceramic coated?

  5. #200
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Any idea why your fuel pressure increased by almost 5 PSI when you had the second pump on? For almost two months, I've been silently pondering the question, "does adding a second pump effectively create a leak in the line?" Now I'm definitely thinking I need to buy a check valve. They come in all shapes and sizes. From the ad:


    Also, based on the amount of effort it took to shift gears, it looks like you're not done bleeding yet.
    The fuel lines can more than handle the additional pressure increase of the secondary pump. I have my suspicions regarding the increase in fuel pressure (some apparent and some more in depth) and I'll do more testing. The regulator has to be set while in operation Fuzzy - unless you have a crystal ball that tells you exactly how many turns on the stem to pre-set it.

    I'm definitely not done bleeding...my brakes and my clutch - what a major PITA!

    ***Edit***
    Here's my somewhat drunk tribute:
    Thanks for all the applause (and silent ones). I tried something new by showing the step-by-step process of modding, thinking, changing, soliciting advice/instruction and learning along the way. It gives a path for everyone to embellish, copy, or flame. Fuzzy added a tremendous amount of content - special thanks!

  6. #201
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    The fuel lines can more than handle the additional pressure increase of the secondary pump. I have my suspicions regarding the increase in fuel pressure (some apparent and some more in depth) and I'll do more testing. The regulator has to be set while in operation Fuzzy - unless you have a crystal ball that tells you exactly how many turns on the stem to pre-set it.
    You may have misunderstood me. I suspect that a significant amount of fuel is leaking backwards through the stationary pump during single-pump operation. Once the secondary pump spins up, that "leak" should be plugged. I fear you may be seeing the actual setpoint of the regulator only when both pumps are online.

    Also, I know the regulator has to be set during operation--I thought you tested the fuel system out of the car to check for leaks and set the regulator pressure. IIRC, two pumps in parallel do not increase the available pump head; they increase flowrate. So unless your regulator valve is stuck, or the feed and return lines are obstructed/too small, bringing extra parallel pumps online will not significantly affect the pressure measured at any point in the system.

  7. #202
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    Re: pig in slop

    Ahh, I see your point. That is something I didn't expect and sounds very reasonable. I think it is leaking backwards...hmm. I also have a very small restricted return into the bucket which is 5/16 ID. I wanted full return into the bucket to keep it covered...that comes with a loss of potential flow - another hmm. That would require a re-design in the bucket which I'm not about to revisit unless I have to. It's a delta of 5psi which isn't bad but good catch though!

    I'm assuming the regulator is robust and gives proper regulation. When the second pump triggers, the increase can be accounted for in the fuel maps when FI comes.

  8. #203
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    Ahh, I see your point. That is something I didn't expect and sounds very reasonable. I think it is leaking backwards...hmm. That would require a re-design in the bucket which I'm not about to revisit unless I have to. It's a delta of 5psi which isn't bad but good catch though!

    I'm assuming the regulator is robust and gives proper regulation. When the second pump triggers, the increase can be accounted for in the fuel maps when FI comes.
    Please don't take this the wrong way, but that sounds like wishful thinking. That 5 PSI delta is going to scale up by about 50% when you try to raise the point of regulation to 60 PSI. How can you accurately tune your car when your fuel pressure is bounces by 7-8 PSI with a tap of the gas pedal?

    Fortunately, I don't think you'll have to change a whole lot. Consider the following:
    Done! And if you installed two check valves, you won't ever have to crank the engine for an extra second or two each morning/night because your fuel system depressurized itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    ***Edit***
    Here's my somewhat drunk tribute:
    Thanks for all the applause (and silent ones). I tried something new by showing the step-by-step process of modding, thinking, changing, soliciting advice/instruction and learning along the way. It gives a path for everyone to embellish, copy, or flame. Fuzzy added a tremendous amount of content - special thanks!
    I don't think this thread is done. 10,000 views and counting. That's a lot of people reading, learning, and laughing at our goofs. Or just a lot of me refreshing the page, hoping that someone responded to my latest post. In the end, it might be useful to funnel what we learned, including a good parts list, into a new thread. Maybe it'll even get stickied. Then, next year, one of us can do a second generation thread regarding an engine swap with an even more outrageous name...anybody?

  9. #204
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Please don't take this the wrong way, but that sounds like wishful thinking. That 5 PSI delta is going to scale up by about 50% when you try to raise the point of regulation to 60 PSI. How can you accurately tune your car when your fuel pressure is bounces by 7-8 PSI with a tap of the gas pedal?

    Fortunately, I don't think you'll have to change a whole lot. Consider the following:
    Done! And if you installed two check valves, you won't ever have to crank the engine for an extra second or two each morning/night because your fuel system depressurized itself.
    I have the luxury of testing the secondary pump with a switch - the delta is 3-5 psi when the primary is set at 58psi. So basically, push the switch for the secondary pump and you have ~62 psi.

    I have it set for the proper fuel pressure of 58psi.

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    I don't think this thread is done. 10,000 views and counting. That's a lot of people reading, learning, and laughing at our goofs. Or just a lot of me refreshing the page, hoping that someone responded to my latest post. In the end, it might be useful to funnel what we learned, including a good parts list, into a new thread. Maybe it'll even get stickied. Then, next year, one of us can do a second generation thread regarding an engine swap with an even more outrageous name...anybody?
    Yeah it's still not done...consider my remarks a tribute to accomplishing a milestone. This would be a crazy sticky of intimidating long dialogue. Interesting enough a speedshop in PA contacted me regarding a parts list regarding the Hobbs switch, wiring and other associated materials - they were running a triple pumper from a Dodge 'something'. I think more than the Cadillac community is paying attention to this thread.

    I think when I'm ready for FI, I'll start a thread called 'Here's comes the boost' or something corny. The 'pig in slop' was taken from my early Navy days in engineering.

  10. #205
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    I have the luxury of testing the secondary pump with a switch - the delta is 3-5 psi when the primary is set at 58psi. So basically, push the switch for the secondary pump and you have ~62 psi.

    I have it set for the proper fuel pressure of 58psi.
    Well, at least you'll be cooling down the cylinder walls instead of running lean. It's better to be safe than KA-BOOM!

    By the way, I was looking for a dramatic/funny picture of car exploding, and then I found this exploded Formula 1 exhibit:



    Cool!

  11. #206
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Well, at least you'll be cooling down the cylinder walls instead of running lean. It's better to be safe than KA-BOOM!

    By the way, I was looking for a dramatic/funny picture of car exploding, and then I found this exploded Formula 1 exhibit:



    Cool!
    I had CO2 cylinders on standby just in case this happened - I was sweating bullets turning the ignition.

  12. #207
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    I had CO2 cylinders on standby just in case this happened - I was sweating bullets turning the ignition.
    Do you have an automotive fire extinguisher, and if so, what do you use? I'm in the market for something lightweight and mountable.

  13. #208
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    Re: pig in slop

    No, I borrowed some from the local fire department - it's right around the corner where I live. With all the crap I do in my garage I should invest and purchase a couple.

    Unrelated, figured I'd share another recommendation with what's strapped to my noggin when I wrench on my cars:
    headlamp - the battery life lasts forever and it's very light weight and comfortable. I've gone through a few others but this is the keeper.

    BTW, any recommendations on a good bleeder, the Mityvac hand pump was useless against the wife's foot.

  14. #209
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    No, I borrowed some from the local fire department - it's right around the corner where I live. With all the crap I do in my garage I should invest and purchase a couple.

    Unrelated, figured I'd share another recommendation with what's strapped to my noggin when I wrench on my cars:
    headlamp - the battery life lasts forever and it's very light weight and comfortable. I've gone through a few others but this is the keeper.

    BTW, any recommendations on a good bleeder, the Mityvac hand pump was useless against the wife's foot.
    When it comes to headlamps, I recommend the LED Lenser H14R. It's somewhat expensive (the asking price is more reasonable now than it was 6 months ago), but worth every single penny. Extremely bright, power efficient, rechargeable, and comfortable. Has a bunch of illumination modes, but I use the intensity ramp feature exclusively. Click the button once to turn it on, then partially depress and hold it. It'll instantly drop to the lowest light setting, then gradually ramp up to maximum brightness. When it hits the light intensity that you want, release the button and it'll stay there.

    I threw away my Mity Vac last year. As everyone says, the Motive Power Bleeder is a much better bleeder. FWIW, a lot of us use the Motive Power Bleeder 0108, which includes the P/N 1108 adapter. I go a step further and have a Earl's 280040 speed bleeder (check valve) on my clutch remote line, and Edelbrock/Russell 639560 speed bleeders on all of my brake calipers. They're awesome--making it clean and practical to bleed the car with only one person.

    You might also want to consider buying a Genesis Bleeder bottle. I know they're expensive, but they're large (750 mL) and well-made. The one I linked you to has a stainless steel cable that lets you hang the bottle off a wheel stud. There's also an alternate version that has a magnet instead.

    If you've ever let your brake system go dry, you'll need to bench bleed the master cylinder (you'll also have to take your car into GM to have them do a Tech 2 ABS solenoid purge, but that's another story). Don't do it on the bench--it's not as fast, clean, or as effective as doing it on the car, using the brake pedal, with this Napa bench bleeder kit. Ignore the Amazon reviews--in this case, they're irrelevant. The kit works perfectly on our car.

    Lastly, check out this fluid moisture sensor tool. This is the only tool I haven't used--it's in my Amazon cart right now. Might eliminate wondering whether it's about time to bleed the clutch/brakes again. Or it might be a waste of $25. I don't know.

  15. #210
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    Re: pig in slop

    I just looked up one of PISNUOFF's old posts, and he's apparently using the MVP-0250 (Summit link). It's a little more expensive, but it looks like it has more adapters. In case there's any doubt, here's the Motive application guide:

    http://www.motiveproducts.com/files/...n%20Guide0.htm

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