pig in slop - Page 13
Cadillac
 

Cadillac Forums | Help Us Help You | Advertise | Cadillac Parts | Cadillac News | Cadillac Classifieds / (Old System)

Cadillac Technical Archive | Cadillac Dealers | Cadillac Reviews | Cadillac Dealer Reviews | Cadillac Vendors

CadillacForums.com is the premier Cadillac Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
+ Reply to Thread
Page 13 of 47 FirstFirst ... 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 195 of 704
Like Tree62Likes
2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, pig in slop in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Depending on which DW300 kit you get, you might not get an electrical pigtail for the pump. When you're ordering ...
  1. #181
    FuzzyLogic is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,034

    Re: pig in slop

    Depending on which DW300 kit you get, you might not get an electrical pigtail for the pump. When you're ordering the Kit #11, you might want to buy a 12-inch pigtail ($5) as well.

  2. #182
    philistine's Avatar
    philistine is online now Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
    Automobile(s): Black 2004 CTS-V
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Birmingham, Alabama, United St
    Posts
    802

    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by odthetruth View Post
    First and foremost... Excellent thread with alot of real good information.
    Thanks! I often wondered who was taking interest whether good/bad.

    I have a couple of questions. I'm currently having fuel pump issues and I believe you will have some insight on this since you've run thru this before.
    My question is... does the Racetronix wiring kit replace the ground that is used on the stock harness, or does it simply add another ground? Or what exactly does the additional ground add-on for the racetronix apply to?
    It doesn't replace the ground. It adds an additional ground that you have to provide where you see fit. I drilled and used rivet nuts for my grounds and placed them in a convenient location that has no obstructions and somewhat easy to access. Pics are in this thread...somewhere.

    I believe I have a bad ground thats causing intermittent problems with starting the car. Occasionally I lose all fuel pressure, and while the car will crank and crank, it will not start. I'm hoping to troubleshoot and locate the issue. I've already had the tank dropped twice and cut an access door. I may go your route on the gasket, but I should have access to material to cut the door cover myself and possibly use aluminum tape afterwards.
    Before you start hacking away your car and buying hotwire kits, take a datalog and find out what your PWM is doing. The Pulse Width Module regulates the fuel pressure with voltage IIRC. If that is functioning properly then you may have a connection issue at the fuel module. Adding the hotwire eliminates the PWM function and the fuel pump will constantly be running at the voltage supplied...good and bad. Good if you are using a BAP and modified fuel system, BAD if you you have neither - this is debatable but the PWM regulates the fuel pressure.

    I'm on a budget, but after talking with Fuzzy, I plan on going with the racetronix kit, 1 dw300, and the #11 kit. I plan on picking up a used bucket and building on that. I'll be running the racetronix kit as done on here, underneath the car.
    While I don't think that is a bad idea you have to consider what you are gaining/losing. Eliminating the PWM by using a relay has its advantages for FI but hardly any for N/A. The DW300 will operate at a constant voltage using a hotwire but if you DO NOT USE the hotwire the DW300 will be regulated by the PWM. It gets complicated. I would not suggest for anyone to use a hotwire unless they are at high horsepower or FI because you lose the PWM which is really efficient for ~500whp - others can disagree but I'm basing that on stock pump.

    Sorry to interrupt the thread with that. Just figured I'd ask since alot of the parts were relevant here.
    In summary, I would take a graded approach if you are N/A and add an additional ground to the fuel pump without the hotwire. If FI then definitely add the hotwire and DW300 pump. The DW300 pump I chose because it's going to be running constantly at a constant voltage and needed something "low duty" so it doesn't draw excessive current. This was strictly for running FI with high horsepower in mind with a target of ~850whp (twin pumps of course).

    I hope you understand what I'm suggesting...hotwire - eliminates PWM, fuel pump runs constantly. Add a ground (no hotwire) might solve your problem. Accessing those wires is a PITA to add a ground even with a trap door.

  3. #183
    FuzzyLogic is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,034

    Re: pig in slop

    Philistine, I didn't know that the stock pump was PWMed. My impression was that it was running at rated speed, the whole time.

    Also, for what it's worth, there have been a couple of discussions on LS1Tech regarding the stock pump: while some have been able to make 500 RWHP on the stock pump, many others have seen fuel pressure at the rail fall significantly during WOT runs at 430-450 RWHP.

    Assuming you're correct about the PWM, I'd argue that any CTS-V making more than 425 RWHP should have a Racetronix hotwire kit and a better pump. When you look at the number of failed fuel systems on this platform, for stock-ish cars, you have to wonder whether there was any real margin in the design of the system. It seems plausible that PWM control was utilized to reduce electrical load on the system, or alternately, GM designed the power distribution system with PWM in mind. Either way, once you make enough power to increase the duty cycle significantly, something in the system is bound to fail.

  4. #184
    philistine's Avatar
    philistine is online now Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
    Automobile(s): Black 2004 CTS-V
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Birmingham, Alabama, United St
    Posts
    802

    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Philistine, I didn't know that the stock pump was PWMed. My impression was that it was running at rated speed, the whole time.

    Also, for what it's worth, there have been a couple of discussions on LS1Tech regarding the stock pump: while some have been able to make 500 RWHP on the stock pump, most others have seen pressure on the rail start to fall during WOT runs at 430-450 RWHP.

    Assuming you're correct about the PWM, I'd argue that any CTS-V making more than 425 RWHP should have a Racetronix hotwire kit and better pump. When you look at the number of failed fuel pump connections on this platform, for cars making stock-ish power, you have to wonder whether there was any real margin in the design of the system. It seems plausible that PWM control was utilized to reduce electrical load on the system, or alternately, GM designed the power distribution system with a PWMed pump in mind. Once you make enough power to increase the duty cycle on that pump significantly, something in the system is bound to fail.
    Fuzzy, based on my knowledge from tuning done that I have witnessed and inquired, the CTS-V is regulated by PWM - very good regulation system for moderate HP - not sufficient for FI or high horsepower.

    I agree that the system was engineered with reducing the electrical load - very common with returnless fuel systems for fuel regulation. This is why using a hotwire in my mind should be used with a complete overhaul of the regulation fuel system - just my thoughts.

  5. #185
    253ctsv is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    298
    Just like to say I read your guyses whole posts. Even though I feel like a first grader in an advanced calculus class. And im years from doing it myself (at whitch point ill probably be paying soneone to do it for me) its really cool to see all the shared info...

  6. #186
    odthetruth's Avatar
    odthetruth is offline Moderator
    Automobile(s): 2006 CTS-V
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    4,979

    Re: pig in slop

    It doesn't replace the ground. It adds an additional ground that you have to provide where you see fit. I drilled and used rivet nuts for my grounds and placed them in a convenient location that has no obstructions and somewhat easy to access. Pics are in this thread...somewhere.
    I'll search and hopefully find this.

    Before you start hacking away your car and buying hotwire kits, take a datalog and find out what your PWM is doing. The Pulse Width Module regulates the fuel pressure with voltage IIRC. If that is functioning properly then you may have a connection issue at the fuel module. Adding the hotwire eliminates the PWM function and the fuel pump will constantly be running at the voltage supplied...good and bad. Good if you are using a BAP and modified fuel system, BAD if you you have neither - this is debatable but the PWM regulates the fuel pressure.

    I hope you understand what I'm suggesting...hotwire - eliminates PWM, fuel pump runs constantly. Add a ground (no hotwire) might solve your problem. Accessing those wires is a PITA to add a ground even with a trap door.
    Datalog using a livescan obdii? Seems to be intermittent so might read correctly until it decides to not start again. I'm definitely assuming this is the ground, considering I've changed the fuel pump out already and still have the same issue. How exactly would I add an additional ground to the fuel pump? Splice into the black cable at the connector or near the relay section, and run another cable to chassis with a bolt?

    While I don't think that is a bad idea you have to consider what you are gaining/losing. Eliminating the PWM by using a relay has its advantages for FI but hardly any for N/A. The DW300 will operate at a constant voltage using a hotwire but if you DO NOT USE the hotwire the DW300 will be regulated by the PWM. It gets complicated. I would not suggest for anyone to use a hotwire unless they are at high horsepower or FI because you lose the PWM which is really efficient for ~500whp - others can disagree but I'm basing that on stock pump.
    I don't plan on doing a twin setup. I think this might be a bit more reliable than what is currently going on with the car. The first time the plug to the pump was removed, it was melted at the ground connector. I have a multimeter, but again, the issue seems intermittent. I am not doing it for performance gains as much as I am for reliability and ease of future access\work. You guys definitely know more on the subject than I do.

    [2006 CTS-V - "The Vee Baby Seamus"] - 372rwhp / 361rwtq
    Pacesetters | Off Road Adapters | Cutouts | Stock Airbox | Stock Catback
    BMR AWK | CS Diff Block | Short Shifter | UMI MM | Revshift TM

  7. #187
    philistine's Avatar
    philistine is online now Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
    Automobile(s): Black 2004 CTS-V
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Birmingham, Alabama, United St
    Posts
    802

    Re: pig in slop

    Splice into the black cable connector and ground that to the chassis - I don't have a pic of the OEM electrical bulkhead connector.



    This pic shows where I mounted my relays. Notice there are 2 grounds - one is slightly hidden. This can give you an idea where to mount another ground.



    I don't want to undersell the hotwire kit from Racetronix - it's a great upgrade but just want you to know the PWM function regulating voltage to your fuel pump would be bypassed. If you have replaced the pump with something more robust such as a nice quiet DW300 and somewhat low ampere rated pump then a hotwire kit would be fine (Walbro 255 is good too just noisy). Just want you know what you would be losing in the process of installing a hotwire kit. It will add a much cleaner/stable voltage as well as a ground to the existing system and should lower the resistance on the electrical bulkhead connector.

    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Philistine, I didn't know that the stock pump was PWMed. My impression was that it was running at rated speed, the whole time.

    Also, for what it's worth, there have been a couple of discussions on LS1Tech regarding the stock pump: while some have been able to make 500 RWHP on the stock pump, many others have seen fuel pressure at the rail fall significantly during WOT runs at 430-450 RWHP.

    Assuming you're correct about the PWM, I'd argue that any CTS-V making more than 425 RWHP should have a Racetronix hotwire kit and a better pump. When you look at the number of failed fuel systems on this platform, for stock-ish cars, you have to wonder whether there was any real margin in the design of the system. It seems plausible that PWM control was utilized to reduce electrical load on the system, or alternately, GM designed the power distribution system with PWM in mind. Either way, once you make enough power to increase the duty cycle significantly, something in the system is bound to fail.
    I re-read this...touche. The electrical system for the pumps and regulation is a weak spot in the design. I believe the PWM can supply up to 16 volts to the fuel pump - I don't have HP tuners to verify it but something stuck in mind from reading. I think if you brought your car to a speedshop they would scratch their heads wondering why you put a hotwire on a N/A car with a returnless system. If you explained the weak design and the electrical bulkhead connector melting on a rising number of V1s then they would understand but it makes it very difficult to yank a nice 11.7 or 12.5 AFR in the upper 450whp range tuning WOT. The PWM serves a BAP and if functioning with a sound electrical system can make over 500whp.

  8. #188
    FuzzyLogic is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,034

    Re: pig in slop

    On page 5 of the thread, you posted this picture:



    At the time, I was thinking, "wow...that's a pretty big mess. I should be able to keep my project space a little cleaner." Buuuuut, the closer I get, the more I'm thinking nope:



    You can see some of my extracurricular activities up there...Hertz ESK 165L.5 speakers, 300 amp AD244 alternator, AMSOIL EAAU6081 filter, and so forth. I'm very pleased with the door, but I haven't cut the final opening yet so I don't know whether it'll be enough to clear -12AN fittings. I also ordered a couple of 15 foot lengths of PTFE hose and a smorgasbord of fittings from FrozenBoost:



    The rest of the stuff is coming from eBay, Amazon, and Summit. I still need the regulator, filter, fuel rails, Hobbs switch, vacuum manifold, and an extra pair of Racetronix relays. Since I'll be deriving power from the alternator, I plan on running power along the driver's side rail and the fuel lines along the passenger side rail.

    The return line will leave the -10AN return port on the bottom of the Aeromotive 13110 regulator, travel to the back of the car, and enter the bucket using a -10AN bulkhead adapter. A 45 degree, 10mm (3/8" equivalent) barb will connect to 3/8" Gates submersible hose, then there's another 3/8" barb, and into the bucket it goes.

    The feed line will start life by traveling toward the engine via two Gates 5/16" submersible hoses, into two 8mm (5/16" equivalent) AN-type barbs (the black barbs on the FrozenBoost screenshot), through a -10AN Russell 650420 female Y-block, and either to a -10AN or -12AN bulkhead adapter. From there, the line becomes -12AN (if it isn't already), goes through the crazy -12AN Aeromotive 12310 filter, and up to a Magnafuel MP-6228 male Y-block where the single -12AN line becomes two -8AN lines. From there, the lines go through the Holley 534-209 fuel rails that you recommended, and into the twin -8AN side ports of the Aeromotive 13110 regulator. The bottom -10AN fitting is where the return line goes. A -4AN boost reference line will travel back to the vacuum manifold, and there will be an air-filled Aeromotive analog gauge to verify that the regulator is doing its job.

    Because the regulator is probably going to end up looking like some kind of freakish Medusa head, with all of the vacuum/return/feed lines coming and going, I'm considering mounting the regulator behind the intake manifold. That would require running the twin -8AN feed lines past the the fuel rails, and then have them loop back and enter from the front. Although it might be a PITA to arrive at a solution that looks good, the effort might pay off in spades when routing all of the other lines.
    philistine likes this.

  9. #189
    philistine's Avatar
    philistine is online now Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
    Automobile(s): Black 2004 CTS-V
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Birmingham, Alabama, United St
    Posts
    802

    Re: pig in slop

    All that looks great! Your parts list is much more comprehensive than mine regarding the bucket and fittings:






    Each part of this job takes a massive amount of planning. Running the fuel lines takes a bit of work but for the most part just time consuming and not really too difficult. The part of the job that took me the longest was wiring. It really has to be well thought out and thoroughly tested prior to install. I spent at least 3 full days working on the wiring and getting it as clean as possible. I had to heavily modify the Racetronix kit on the length of the wire and some depinning here and there according to my set-up.

    Regarding the vacuum manifold, I took a page from my import experience and used the Blox (pics are in this thread) commonly found on boosted Civics and s2ks. LG Motorsports makes one ridiculously overpriced and provides no under-the-hood flare. Just make sure you don't boost reference until you actually get boost - will screw up your fuel maps etc.

    I haven't shopped for engines yet but I got plenty of time - taking the idea of a 427 iron block off the table.

    Btw, my parts supply is starting to shrink FINALLY as all this stuff is just about finished going on the car.

  10. #190
    FuzzyLogic is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,034

    Re: pig in slop

    Why did you decide against a 427 LSX?

  11. #191
    philistine's Avatar
    philistine is online now Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
    Automobile(s): Black 2004 CTS-V
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Birmingham, Alabama, United St
    Posts
    802

    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Why did you decide against a 427 LSX?
    I ran a couple things through my speedshop and he doesn't recommend it. He invited me to come down and take a look at some dyno print outs and give me a lesson on much better suited options with aluminum blocks that are much more efficient and lighter weight. I"ll know more when I see what he has to show me.

  12. #192
    FuzzyLogic is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,034

    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    I ran a couple things through my speedshop and he doesn't recommend it. He invited me to come down and take a look at some dyno print outs and give me a lesson on much better suited options with aluminum blocks that are much more efficient and lighter weight. I"ll know more when I see what he has to show me.
    I'm interested in what you find out, but I have a hard time believing a 416 CID LS3 will be better than a 427 LSX for a boosted application.

  13. #193
    philistine's Avatar
    philistine is online now Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
    Automobile(s): Black 2004 CTS-V
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Birmingham, Alabama, United St
    Posts
    802

    Re: pig in slop

    Fuzzy when does your budget allow you to start with the major upgrades? I'm curious if you're going motor first or last. Wondering when that 9" becomes part of your sig.

  14. #194
    FuzzyLogic is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    2,034

    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    Fuzzy when does your budget allow you to start with the major upgrades? I'm curious if you're going motor first or last. Wondering when that 9" becomes part of your sig.
    Well, that depends on how well I can remain patient with the amount of power that I have. If I do things right, the G-Force 9" IRS with a carbon fiber driveshaft is first, a Level VII TR6060 with oil cooler is second, the engine (which could cost as little as $8000 for a 416 CID LS3 or as much as $17000 for a 427 CID RHS) is third, and the 3.3L or 4.0L Whipple is fourth. My budget will allow me to complete the two piece rotor and V2 caliper upgrades, fuel system, and POR-15 underbody coating, this year. If I pinch pennies, I could have either the G-Force 9" IRS or a LS3 by the June timeframe. The one thing that I'm not factoring in is what I might get for my existing engine, transmission, and rear end--complete.

  15. #195
    philistine's Avatar
    philistine is online now Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
    Automobile(s): Black 2004 CTS-V
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Birmingham, Alabama, United St
    Posts
    802

    Re: pig in slop

    Looks like we'll be shopping for engines/FI about the same time perhaps.

    I finally fired it up! I kept it at idle to check for leaks. All the wiring works and the secondary pump LED switch and indicator works like a charm. The regulator is pre-set to 40psi and IIRC these engines are supposed to receive 58psi - please correct me if I'm wrong. BTW, NO LEAKS!

    The DW300 have a high pitch sound when they wind up but I have the back seat out and trap door open so it's louder and because I'm listening for it. I guess I can do a follow up post on the wiring and relays since it passed! I can put away my CO2 bottles - you never know.

    Time for some beer drinking...
    odthetruth likes this.

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Register Now

Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site.
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.

Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Bookmarks

Cadillac Posting Rules

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Read about Lincoln | Buick | Kia Forte Forum
Need products for your Cadillac? Check out your options at the links below:

custom floor mats | Cadillac Chrome and Black Chrome Wheels | window tinting