SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter... - Page 3
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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter... in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; That's the point though. The plate doesn't move in relation to the tunnel, but it does move in relation to ...
  1. #31
    VincentT is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter...

    That's the point though. The plate doesn't move in relation to the tunnel, but it does move in relation to the transmission. Since the stock design attached the plate to the body and the other end of the linkage to the transmission, there had to be inherent play in the entire system so something wouldn't break later in the vehicle's lifespan from the driveline flexing under load. The supports allow the shifter to float freely relative to the body, and instead be mounted to the transmission. This is more in keeping with a traditional shifter and allows the linkage to be made much stronger and stiffer without sacrificing durability. The main change that will happen (other than better shifting) is that, from the perspective of the driver, the shifter will move more when the driveline is under load.

  2. #32
    Tom400CFI is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter...

    ^Bingo^! This guy "gets it".

    Here is another pic of the shifter assy, with the braces, and the mounts for the gate...





    I struggled to come up with a good way to "find" the location/shape of the pin and it's movement on the shift lever. I tried using a piece of cardboard, poking holes in it w/the pin with the shifter in each gear...but the holes weren't very accurate, and then the cardboard tore, so. :/
    I finally ended up using a simple piece of paper, backlighting and then when in any given gear, the precise location of the pin was obvious. I marked it w/a sharpie. Here is what it looked like. I was suprised that the pattern is slightly diagonal...


    Now I need to transcribe those points onto my piece of steel, then make my cuts and finish it off with a die grinder.

  3. #33
    carlson_mn is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter...

    Nice work... personally I always thought a little bit of play in the mechanism helps when shifting quickly, kind of acting like a 'funnel' when getting into the next gear quickly. I wonder if making that shifter gate is going to make it more difficult getting into gears quickly? Let us know - you can always cut it out if it bothers you. Just don't forget to occasionally spend some quality time driving the car too!

  4. #34
    FuzzyLogic is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom400CFI View Post
    What part is the "shifter plate"? If you are talking about the shifter base (where the shift elver pivots) it does move. Absolutely. Maybe you're talking about a different part?
    The riveted plate where the remote linkage meets the car. Mine doesn't move relative to the transmission. At all. Can the transmission twist relative to the body of the car? I'm sure it does, slightly, since it's bolted to the motor, but it's hard to know how much without putting a GoPro in a very awkward spot.

    There's more to this problem than just the linkage. Another chunk of this problem can be attributed to the stock motor mounts, and the rest to the original T56 itself. The keyway in the shift forks (which can bend) was probably one of the dumber things Tremec did with that design. A lot of people refer to the TR6060 as the stronger T56, but in reality, there was a huge focus on reducing shift effort there.

  5. #35
    Tom400CFI is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter...

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    The riveted plate where the remote linkage meets the car. Mine doesn't move relative to the transmission. At all. Can the transmission twist relative to the body of the car? I'm sure it does, slightly, since it's bolted to the motor, but it's hard to know how much without putting a GoPro in a very awkward spot.
    Put a Go Pro under there. You'll be very surprised, I'll bet. All of the drivetrain moves around all the time that the car is moving. The diff flops all over the place, the drive shaft wobbles in the carrier bearing, the engine/trans assy also move...a lot. During a WOT 1st gear event, the engine/trans assy is sending about 1200 lb-ft of torque down the drive shaft. That amount of torque is going to produce a substantial reaction (movement of the assy), and of course, it does.



    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    There's more to this problem than just the linkage. Another chunk of this problem can be attributed to the stock motor mounts, and the rest to the original T56 itself. The keyway in the shift forks (which can bend) was probably one of the dumber things Tremec did with that design. A lot of people refer to the TR6060 as the stronger T56, but in reality, there was a huge focus on reducing shift effort there.
    I completely agree with your first sentence...which is why you'll notice that this thread isn't limited to shifter struts. I'm addressing everything from the knob to the trans.
    Motor mounts typically have nothing to do with shifting issues....unless of course, your shifter is bolted to both the body and the transmission at the same time. Another reason to get the shifter away from the floor pan.

    FYI, ther TR6060 IS way stronger than the T56...and it does shift better too. But what has that got to do w/the topic at hand? My complaint isn't about the resistance imparted by the synchros, on my shifting action. My complaints are:
    *the car wouldn't go into 1st 1/2 the time
    *the Car wouldn't go into reverse 1/2 the time
    *When in any given gear, you could "mock shift" through a typical 4-speed "H-pattern" just in the slop that existed when IN, any given gear.
    *the feel provided by any shifting event was unrewarding, and frankly, goofy feeling. "Sporty feeling" was not there at all.
    ^That sucks!, and has nothing to do w/the T56 in particular. My old '93 T56 in my Trans Am (years ago) shifted 100x better than this Caddy ever has. Why? B/c the shifter was 100% part of the transmission and it engaged the internal shift rail, directly.

    An interesting note; my C4 Corvette has a manual trans that also, (similar to the Caddy) has a remote mounted shifter off the tail end of the trans. Fortunately, for the driving experience in the Corvette, they mounted the shifter entirely on the tail of the trans so the shifter/trans are one unit. They did not try to tie the driveline to the floor pan in the Corvette. Also note that in this trans (you can see in the cut-away) that the shifter actuates the internal shift rail directly through a U-joint...just like I suggested in my first post. Although (due to a cheap linkage/u-joint) the Corvette still has a some what sloppy shifter (compared to the goal in this thread), it is nothing, and I mean NOTHING like the shifter in the Cadillac.

  6. #36
    ctsv247 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter...

    If that's you and you're a machinist, you should just design an entirely new shifter base and offer it for resale! It looks like the shifter just rivets into the existing base so could swapping the shifter over be done rather easily? I would bet you could sell several hundred of these over the next few years.....

    just sayin.....I'd buy one.
    HAMSTAR, HAMSTAR and HAMSTAR like this.

  7. #37
    Tom400CFI is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter...

    Ha ha...no, that is not me, and I'm not a machinist (though I wish I had more tools to do that kind of work! The pic is Bill Bordeau, AKA "ZFDoc". He is the "go-to guy" for all Corvette ZF-6 transmission issues. I used that pic b/c it shows clearly, a proper remote mounted shifter, and the cutaway shows how it directly manipulates the internal rail, compared to how the Caddy basically remotely manipulates what is basically a shifter, that then manipulates the internal rail.

    Quote Originally Posted by carlson_mn View Post
    Nice work... personally I always thought a little bit of play in the mechanism helps when shifting quickly, kind of acting like a 'funnel' when getting into the next gear quickly. I wonder if making that shifter gate is going to make it more difficult getting into gears quickly? Let us know - you can always cut it out if it bothers you. Just don't forget to occasionally spend some quality time driving the car too!
    I agree and have thought about tapering the enterance to each gear to aid smooth/fast shifting. It's just something that I'll have to play with and see what works best. Never done it before.

  8. #38
    AAIIIC's Avatar
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    Re: SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom400CFI View Post
    Here is another pic of the shifter assy, with the braces, and the mounts for the gate...

    Are you sure that's going to clear the driveshaft? There's not a whole lot of vertical clearance between the bottom of the shift lever and the top of the driveshaft.

    I like the idea of the support struts, but I think the gate is unnecessary and is probably going to make the shifter feel worse.
    '05 Stealth Grey CTS-V, Hyper Silver Linea Corse Venetos w/Continental ExtremeContact DWs (summer), black Team Dynamics ProRace 1.2 wheels with 275/35-18 R-compounds (track), Hyperblack Rota Torques (winter), KW Variant3s, V2 front brakes, Hotchkis rear sway bar, EPS cam, TEA-ported 243 heads, FAST92 intake w/LS2 TB, JBA Camaro/G8 1-3/4" shorty headers w/JBA cat pipes, Corsa exhaust, UUC motor and tranny mounts, UUC shifter, MAPerformance trailing arms, Specter cradle bushings, etc...

  9. #39
    FuzzyLogic is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter...

    Honestly, the only thing that's going to get me really excited about modifying the shifter on the CTS-V is if someone takes a longer tailshaft housing from a conventional T56 or TR6060 and does what GM should've done in the first place.





    Of course, we'd need shorter driveshafts, but that's a good thing. Our driveshaft is ridiculously long and its critical speed correspondingly low.

  10. #40
    Tom400CFI is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter...

    Quote Originally Posted by AAIIIC View Post
    Are you sure that's going to clear the driveshaft? There's not a whole lot of vertical clearance between the bottom of the shift lever and the top of the driveshaft.

    I like the idea of the support struts, but I think the gate is unnecessary and is probably going to make the shifter feel worse.
    Yes, I'm sure. Did you see the pics of it in the car above??

    The gate is unnecessary. It MAY make it worse. It may make it better. I can always cut it off if it doesn't work.

    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Honestly, the only thing that's going to get me really excited about modifying the shifter on the CTS-V is if someone takes a longer tailshaft housing from a conventional T56 or TR6060 and does what GM should've done in the first place.
    O.K. Well thanks for your contribution.

    You DO realize that Camaro tail shaft still puts the shifter over 5" too far forward? In reality what "GM should've done" is mount the entire engine/trans about 4" back from where it is currently located. This would have improved weight distribution, shortened the drive shaft, allowed the use of the Camaro trans with a direct-to-rail type shifter. IDK why the engine is so far forward. But this type of day-dreaming is like saying "what I should have done is bought a different car".

  11. #41
    ctsv247 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter...

    So who's going to make the first set of offset motor mounts....
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom400CFI View Post
    Yes, I'm sure. Did you see the pics of it in the car above??

    The gate is unnecessary. It MAY make it worse. It may make it better. I can always cut it off if it doesn't work.

    ----------

    O.K. Well thanks for your contribution.

    You DO realize that Camaro tail shaft still puts the shifter over 5" too far forward? In reality what "GM should've done" is mount the entire engine/trans about 4" back from where it is currently located. This would have improved weight distribution, shortened the drive shaft, allowed the use of the Camaro trans with a direct-to-rail type shifter. IDK why the engine is so far forward. But this type of day-dreaming is like saying "what I should have done is bought a different car".

  12. #42
    PISNUOFF Guest

    Re: SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter...

    ^^^^and cut their tunnel to make it fit.

  13. #43
    FuzzyLogic is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter...

    Quote Originally Posted by PISNUOFF View Post
    ^^^^and cut their tunnel to make it fit.
    Exactly. The motor will barely move back an inch, let alone four.

  14. #44
    VincentT is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter...

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Exactly. The motor will barely move back an inch, let alone four.
    Hence the remote shifter.

  15. #45
    Tom400CFI is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: SHIFTER: Dissecting, and fixing the CTS-V's shifter...

    The motor is about 4-5" from the firewall. The bell housing appears to be the limiting factor there. Like I said above; different car. Anyway, we're getting way off topic here.

    Worked on the gate today. I was really worried that it would be a complete and total waste of time; I thought what would happen is that I'd trace the marks, cut the gate out, and then when the shifter was bolted to the trans, the actual path wouldn't align with my gated path. But, trying to be as precise as possible, I moved forward. At this point, does anyone fail to see what the intended purpose of the gate is? In case some one missed it, the purpose of the gate is to provide a solid, "locked in" feel of the shift lever, when it is placed in any given gear. The feel is not obtainable w/the stock shifter design, due to tolerances in the trans itself, starting with the trans shifter/cap -the part that bolts on top of the trans.

    SO....I laid my marked paper (from post #32) over my piece of steel, and used a center punch to mark the steel, through the paper.


    Here is what the punch marks looked like:


    I then drilled out each of the punch marks, then connected the dots, and started cutting the gate grooves with a cut-off wheel. I purposely cut them too narrow, so that I could fine tune them w/a die grinder and not introduce too much extra clearance.


    After a little more cutting, and grinding...


    Here it is ready for a test fit. Note that I've tapered the ends of each "peninsula" so as to aid in access to each gear when shifting. I may end up cutting the "peninsulas" back so that the guide pin is not in a gate groove until the shifter is fully into a gear...depending on how it feels in actual use. I placed the blue shop towel behind it for contrast...



    Here are two pics of how it should look, installed.





    I re-installed the shifter on the trans and had my son shift through the gears as I held the gate plate in place to see how badly my mapping turned out. In fact, it turned out pretty damn fantastic. I am stoked at how it appears it will work. I need to do a very small amount of finish grinding, then weld the gate plate on to the frame I made previously. Then, put it all together and go drive the thing. I'm pretty excited about it, at the moment.

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