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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, Supercharging LS6 in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Originally Posted by DMM ... my E Force 2300 ... its not a kit like the Maggie ... Unless you ...
  1. #16
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    Re: Supercharging LS6

    Quote Originally Posted by DMM View Post
    ... my E Force 2300 ... its not a kit like the Maggie ...
    Unless you can produce a parts list and a source list and instructions, this is almost a bird in the hand and two in the bush. I'm not saying you can't ... there needs to be one. If fact, you'd be doing a big favor to a lot guys if you put together a really solid document.

    One huge advantage of the MP-112 is that even a guy like I can do it ... in my garage ... with tools most guys have or can latch onto for minimal bucks ... it's that easy ... if that means anything to the OP. It's a nice bump in power output without exceeding the limits of the motor, too. That TVS-2300 will undoubtedly result in >500 rwhp, but a motor failure will quickly make you wish you played it a bit more conservatively. Personally, I'm not a trailblazer ... I just like keeping the really fast guys still in sight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manofmetal01 View Post
    Not to hijack the thread, Im collecting info to do the same to my ls2 but with the 6th gen. I read one person say lingenfelter no longer sells their kit(?). Is the 6th gen still an option for the ls2 or am I stuck looking at the mp112? I realize the cost to power ratio is ridiculous.
    In my discussions with Lingenfelter they indicated they no longer sell their kit. I picked up an Edelbrock TVS 2300 from Hendrix Engineering. If they are correct all I will have to fab are the PS reservoir relocation bracket, inter cooler mounting bracket, and intake piping. This assumes a head swap to rectangular vs cathedral port heads in my case (I was going to go w LS3 Heads anyway but I am currently looking at the LSA head).

    I keep hearing people complain about the complexity of the TVS kit but it doesn't seem extremely daunting. The head and cam replacement scare me more than anything else.

  3. #18
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    Re: Supercharging LS6

    Quote Originally Posted by rand49er View Post
    Unless you can produce a a parts list and a source list and instructions, this is almost a bird in the hand and two in the bush. I'm not saying you can't ... there needs to be one. If fact, you'd be doing a big favor to a lot guys if you put together a really solid document.

    One huge advantage of the MP-112 is that even a guy like I can do it ... in my garage ... with tools most guys have or can latch onto for minimal bucks ... it's that easy ... if that means anything to the OP. It's a nice bump in power output without exceeding the limits of the motor, too. That TVS-2300 will undoubtedly result in >500 rwhp, but a motor failure will quickly make you wish you played it a bit more conservatively. Personally, I'm not a trailblazer ... I just like keeping the really fast guys still in sight.
    I understand your point, and agree with you. I already posted the parts list on the LS1 Tech thread as a pic (what I could anyway) and Edelbrock already has the recipe to accommodate us V1 owners. It's not too terribly complicated...C6 LS2 cathedral port head unit with the Camaro/G8 snout. You have to get the LS2 belt tensioner setup as well, and I got the upgraded 60lb Deka injectors all for over $1k less than a Maggie kit. Hell, it cost me less than $1k more than what I sold my old Maggie for, truth be told. There are a few vendors looking into providing this to the masses, and I believe FuzzyLog1c is toying with the idea of a group buy.

    What do I have to add to that?
    - HEX system (Frozenboost.com, about $350 in total); and I will be using insulated aluminum lines rather than heater hose, all sourced from the drivers side since the passenger hose gets pinched off by the radiator where the Maggie system returns to the reservoir.
    - LS2 Throttle body (an additional $350? since I have an LS6, LS2 owners would be a straight bolt on)
    - Fuel "Y" block, adapter, and braided lines ($75 through Summit)
    - I am adding a fuel pump since I (personally) will exceed the Maggie's potential, but not required if you are not boosting it higher than 8 lbs
    - I will do my own tuning, but add $500 est. for someone to have this done

    Once I get my build underway (the damn thing was delivered Friday night and I left on a 45 day trip the following Monday morning) you will see that it is not any more involved than the Maggie install.

    And I think you have the wrong idea here, this will not blow up your motor simply b/c it is a larger unit. Granted, a screw charger (Kenne Bell, Whipple, etc) are extremely hard on the drivetrain, but the TVS 2300 is not harsh as you are thinking. You could pulley this thing down on a stock motor if you wished until it popped, but outside of that, it can provide the 112 output levels much safer (through improved efficiency since the air is heated much less) and will have drastically improved torque when not in boost due to the 12" long intake runners, where the Maggie lower intake plenum is a short runner design. Most importantly, you have room for growth which is non-existent with the 112.

    Change is not always bad.

    I also need to finish the V2 engine mount installation before I start my build...don't know if I can hold out though. Too many projects...too little time.

  4. #19
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    Re: Supercharging LS6

    [QUOTE=sssnake;3111357]This assumes a head swap to rectangular vs cathedral port heads in my case (I was going to go w LS3 Heads anyway but I am currently looking at the LSA head).

    Have you seen these?

    http://www.mastmotorsports.com/2010/...p?cat=Cylinder Heads - Assembled&id=360 for LS6

    http://www.mastmotorsports.com/2010/...p?cat=Cylinder Heads - Assembled&id=361 for LS2

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    I haven't looked at the mast pieces but I assume they are cathedral port as they are for the LS1/2. The edelbrock package I have is for rectangular intake port heads. I'll check just those to be sure.

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    Re: Supercharging LS6

    Quote Originally Posted by DMM View Post
    ... this will not blow up your motor simply b/c it is a larger unit ...
    It doesn't matter what you use to generate more power compared to a maggie ... you must by definition increase the cylinder pressures to create more power.

    Where's the limit for a stock LS6 bottom end in terms of "rwhp?" I'm not sure. But, there are precious few guys (stkshkr comes to mind as one) who have blown their motor with an MP-112 on top. Eventually, jamming more and more air and fuel into those cylinders in order to have a bigger, more powerful explosion which in turn is transmitted through the tranny and down the driveshaft as torque to the rear tires will get close to the mechanical limit of the LS6's strength until its exceeded ... then it'll go kerphlooey.

    Just sayin'.
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  7. #22
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    Re: Supercharging LS6

    Quote Originally Posted by sssnake View Post
    I haven't looked at the mast pieces but I assume they are cathedral port as they are for the LS1/2. The edelbrock package I have is for rectangular intake port heads. I'll check just those to be sure.
    These are rectangular port style heads for the LS6 and LS2 bore size. As rand49er states, what is the weekest link in the complete drivetrain? Gm went to stronger block/heads, and piston squirters (LS9) for the 2300 supercharger application. Take a look at the spec's for the supercharged version of the COPO Camaro. They are getting some serious power out of 5.3L

    The stock LS6 crankshaft is good for 500 flywheel hp all day long and 500rwhp if properly set up. I really like the efficiency of the LS6, especially in a lighter more aerodynamic body.

  8. #23
    CTS V Tuner is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    For the sake of sharing some knowledge, let me try and debunk some myths and make positive displacement superchargers a little less mystifying. Unit vs unit, if the net boost pressure is the same 6psi the two different compressors should make the same power, but often that isn't the case. Why?

    Well, it has a lot to do with the sizing and design of the compressor. Newer compressor designs have become more efficient with less internal friction in the rotor seals, and more efficient gear cases, not to mention the improvements in the actual rotor design. So on two identically sized Eatons, there will be a notable increase in power between even a 5th Generation and 6th Generation design of the same displacement in the same application.

    So there are two superchargers being discussed at length in this thread:

    The MP112 Magnussen which is a 5th Generation Eaton 3-lobe rotor design that moves 112 cubic inches of air through its case per revolution.

    The TVS2300 E-Force from Edelbrock is a 6th Generation Eaton 4-lobe design that moves 140 cubic inches of air through its case per revolution.

    The key to understanding these things is that your engine makes two (2) revolutions to consume its rated displacement. So for a 5.7L (346cid) LS6 one revolution of the crankshaft theoretically consumes 173 cubic inches of air and fuel mixture.

    Now, it's math time! To make 0 pressure and 0 vacuum, essentially maintaining atmospheric pressure, the blower would need to match the displacement of the engine. Simple math here:

    For the Magnussen MP112
    173cid / 112cid = 1.5446:1 drive ratio

    For the Edelbrock E-Force TVS2300
    173cid / 140cid = 1.2357:1 drive ratio

    Now, to make boost, we need to note that sea level atmospheric pressure is 14.7psi, and that for each additional atmosphere above atmospheric pressure, the volume of the consumed charge increases by the original volume. So 14.7psi boost into a 346cid LS6 engine results in the engine consuming 692cid of air charge. To figure out what 6psi equals its (6/14.7)x346=487.x cid.

    So lets use 6psi as our bench mark boost level for a positive displacement supercharger on a stock LS6. To set up our combination, we need to know the ratio between engine displacement and compressor displacement from above, only with boost applied to the displacement value.

    LS6 @ 6psi: 487/2=243.5cid
    MP112: 243.5/112=2.1741 drive ratio
    TVS2300: 243.5/140=1.7393 drive ratio

    So with the stock LS6 7.5" crank pulley, the MP112 needs a 3.45" driven pulley (7.5/2.1741=3.45). And Magnussen provides a 3.4" pulley in their LS1 non-charge cooled Vette kits. Imagine that. Why the smaller pulley when this compressor is charge cooled then? Temperature drop and a small amount of restriction through the intercooler results in a pressure drop. The cooled charge air is more dense, or conversely less expanded from heat, so to maintain the same pressure post charge cooling you speed up the compressor a bit.

    The TVS however, only needs a 4.31" driven pulley in a non charge cooled configuration, but they don't sell it that way and for good reason. So the 6psi pulley for an LS2 E-Force kit (close as we get to LS6) is 3.875", again due in major part to charge cooling pressure losses and a tick more engine displacement than our LS6.

    All thing being equal, you're turning the TVS 20% less than the MP112 to move the same volume of air. That's less work, and in turn, less heat generated both in the supercharger and by the engine. Also, the larger pulley diameter of the TVS means less belt slippage vs the MP112.

    If anything, the TVS will be easier on the engine at any comparative power level, not harder as suggested. Charge temps will be easier to control too, reducing the demand on the intercooler and providing greater tuning flexibility. It would also stand to reason that for identical boost and flow values, the Gen-VI will always edge out the Gen-V design in a power contest as a more efficient design.

    Now, there was also a comment that a Whipple/Kenne Bell was harder on parts that either an MP112 or the TVS2300. Nothing could be further from true, considering the Lysholm design is what the TVS aspires to be. Now perhaps a 3.3/3.4/4.0 Lysholm is a bit overkill for a stock to mild LS6 build, but on a built 6.2L those guys would offer some serious potential. I wouldn't knock the Lysholm designs of any size 1.2+ when used appropriately like the TVS.

  9. #24
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    Re: Supercharging LS6

    Quote Originally Posted by CTS V Tuner View Post
    ...If anything, the TVS will be easier on the engine at any comparative power level, not harder as suggested ...
    Good observations, but I believe you're referring to external, drive components associated with the superchargers and the parasitic requirements while my comments are referring purely to the LS6 internals: pistons, cylinder walls, wrist pins, connecting rods, crankshaft, and main bearings and caps.

    My point is that somewhere in those internal components is a weak link. To put more power at the rear tire-pavement interface (i.e. rwhp), you simply must put more stress on those internal components by putting higher pressures within the combustion chambers either in aggregate or peak or both. My comments are independent of how you develop those higher combustion pressures (i.e. roots, scroll, Lysholm, etc), but as those pressures increase you will eventually exceed the stock internals' capability to remain intact as a functioning mechanical entity.
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  10. #25
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    You don't necessarily need more boost to make power... Efficiency is key and the TVS unit is by far more efficient due to the 160 rotor twist and four lobes... Less internal friction and turbulence equals less heat which equals lower IATs and more fuel... Tune is obviously most important as that will essentially set the limit of the internals to a certain degree... Throw e85 in the equation with the same amount of boost and that unlocks more power... What is the limit of the motor? If you detonate with high boost... Then not very much at all.., I understand your example with the cylinder pressure, but that's a broad subject... Cam profiles change dynamic compression... Internals can break under tension rather than compression too

  11. #26
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    Ok, let's talk cylinder pressure. It sounds like your concern is exceeding peak cylinder pressure limits. That's not what makes power though. You're confusing peak cylinder pressure with mean cylinder pressure in terms of power production.

    You can lower peak pressure and increase mean pressure by way of altering the charge air temperature and charge volume in the cylinder, relative fuel volume (air fuel ratio) and fuel type, and ignition timing. It takes a pretty solid understanding of the combination and years of tuning experience to have a handle on those aspects though.

    Now, if we've established the failure point with one combination, it doesn't necessarily make that the failure point for another. Let's assume for a minute that an internally stock LS6 with long tubes and full exhaust sporting the Magnuson will fail at the 600 rwhp mark. In order to make that power, you have to pulley the blower to make 14-15psi. As you increase the boost you add air charge temperature both from pressurization and from heat generated inside the compressor itself. It also takes more power to spin the supercharger faster to make the additional boost which is why you'll never see a linear power gain per pound of boost as you increase boost pressure going into the engine with supercharging. So to see 600rwhp, lets say you're using roughly 75hp to spin the supercharger (not an unrealistic number by any stretch). You're also maxing out the intercooler with super-heated air, your engine tuner is adding fuel and pulling spark in attempt to ward off a lean condition or detonation. Really, it's a mess.

    So put a 25% bigger supercharger of the same design in the combination. Right away you benefit from a cooler air charge and lower parasitic drag on the engine, because you spin the rotors 20% less to move the same volume of air. That 20% reduction in blower speed equates to about 20% less heat generated by friction, and about 20% less power required to spin the compressor, or netting about 15hp saved in parasitic losses alone. The reduction in charge temp allows the tune to have more ignition timing, meaning more power produced. And because of the lower parasitic drag and decreased charge temp, now we happily exceed the power output of the smaller supercharger at the same boost level. If the specific power output was an intentional goal, not to be exceeded, it also gives us the opportunity to slow down the compressor, taking away 1-2psi, enhancing the reliability at the set power level. And that is how 600rwhp can be made with less cylinder pressure using a larger supercharger.

    Using a better design like the TVS vs an M series blower and everything relating to using a larger compressor is further true. So if we know the failure point for an LS6 with the Magnussen, we can identify the failure point with a TVS, and I assure you it will be higher.
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    Re: Supercharging LS6

    i do not the failure point of an LS6 using force induction, but in naturally aspirated applications the pistons are generally considered the weakest link. The pistons are reliable up to 550 rwhp (650 at the crank) and workable, but not particularly reliable up 600 rwhp (700 at the crank). The crank is considered reliable up to 1,000 hp at the crank. (The failure point of the rods is somewhere in between but at the lower end of the range.)
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  13. #28
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    So that supports exactly what I'm getting at in my last example. If the failure point is between 650 and 700 crankshaft horsepower, subtract the power used to drive the blower, call it 60-75, and that give you the failure point supercharged in the range of 575-640. Somewhere in that range it will fail, could be right at 575, could potentially be over 640, and the higher the number te sooner te failure is likely to occur. In terms of rwhp, that pus you in failure territory at anything much over 500 with positive displacement or a centrifugal. A turbo could likely go 550-575.

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    Makes sense... Exactly why I'm gonna stick with 2.75 upper for now... Despite what I really want to do

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