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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, Efi live vs HP tuners in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Originally Posted by howanicm So the wideband is similar to o2 sensors? I do have headers on my car now. ...
  1. #16
    trukk's Avatar
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    Re: Efi live vs HP tuners

    Quote Originally Posted by howanicm View Post
    So the wideband is similar to o2 sensors? I do have headers on my car now. Just the front o2 sensors are in. My diablosport gives me the long term fuel trims. Is this similar to what a wideband sensor will give me or will it be the actual a/f ratio. Now all i get are bank 1 and bank 2 and from my best knowledge you want the LTFT's to read as close to 0.00 through out the powerband.
    Regular O2's are 'narrow band' sensors. When you make your mods, the narrow-band is just going to tell you 'I don't like what I'm seeing', and throw a Check Engine Light (CEL). The wideband provides a borader range of feedback to the tunning software, so you can get the tune in line (to even where the narrow-band will like it and not throw a CEL). Basically you need to use the wideband in front of your cats, as that shows how efficinetly your burn is happening by reading the exhaust gases before the cats do thier magic. Remember that the CAT's job are to deal with any non-burnt fuel and bad emmisions. If you try and tune after the cat, it is *much* harder, because if the cat is doing it's job, your changes won't register much. The OEM tune/pcm will take the reading pre-cat from the pre-cat O2's, and compare it against the reading from the post cat O2's. If the delta is too big, or the post cat number too high == CEL. I'd recommend that you turn off you front O2's via your new tune, and pull one (or both if you are into overkill), and replace with a wideband sensor. As long as you only plan to tune your car, just leave the wiedband in the car.

    Regarding which to use, it's been covered. I'd recommend going to thier forums, and reading their 'newbie-guides', and see which make more sense to the way your brain oeprates. Your not going to 'lose' going one over the other.

    -Chris
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    Hammar is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Efi live vs HP tuners

    Pardon my brand favor, AEM makes a great wideband, there are others as well... I've got an LC-1 in my V and love it.

    Below is a video I like for laymans terms of what's going on with a wideband and why you should sell the wife/kids to gypsy's to get one...
    Main page (click on LM-101 Tuning Basics....)
    http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/lm101.php

    With EFI live or HP tuners, you input Wideband data (Air fuel ratio) and log RPM versus MAP verusus Air Fuel ratio, then adjust the amount of fuel you need to get the right ratio.

    Hammar

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    howanicm is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Efi live vs HP tuners

    Thanks everyone for all the input. With our cars, would we need 2 WB sensors? Also do they eliminate the stock o2 sensors or go before or behind them.
    Jeremy those videos are awesome thanks for that resource.

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    Re: Efi live vs HP tuners

    Quote Originally Posted by howanicm View Post
    Thanks everyone for all the input. With our cars, would we need 2 WB sensors? Also do they eliminate the stock o2 sensors or go before or behind them.
    Jeremy those videos are awesome thanks for that resource.
    You can get 2 but it's overkill. One is enough as on paper you should be getting similar readings. They do not eliminate precat o2 sensors. Leave those in place as you need them. I had a bung welded to my header, pre-cat, about a couple of inches ahead of the stock o2. Make sure it's mounted on the side (not at the top or bottom). Been running one for almost 3 years without problems other than some mild OCD.

    Regarding EFI vs HP. The one thing EFI has going for it as far as I know with our PCMs is 2 or 3 bar OS support for speed density tuning for the E67 PCM (that's 06 and 07 cars). I don't believe HPT has 2 bar on the E67 (someone correct me). This may be a big deal for you if you go supercharged and want to flip to SD tuning and cut out your maf from the equation. I'm a big fan of it personally but I know some will say why not stick to MAF.

    That's it though. HPT has really good after market support/forums etc. EFI has far more frequent software updates + very good cummins diesel support if that floats your boat. If you ever plan to tune other cars check the licensing costs. EFI sells vin + tcm licenses at ~125 a pop (it comes with an LS1A stream license (so unlimited LS1 tuning) + 3 from new licenses so you can tune 3 unique VINs and TCMs if applicable) vs. HP tuners credits system which is a tad confusing so read up on it.

  5. #20
    RyRidesMotoX is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Efi live vs HP tuners

    Lol the HP licensing is a "tad" confusing... understatement of the year haha. You can do it car by car, and each model of car is a different cost, or unlock an entire model of car but some aren't available, or unlock a certain year lol... it really is the one bad thing about HP tuners.

    Quote Originally Posted by howanicm View Post
    So the wideband is similar to o2 sensors? I do have headers on my car now. Just the front o2 sensors are in. My diablosport gives me the long term fuel trims. Is this similar to what a wideband sensor will give me or will it be the actual a/f ratio. Now all i get are bank 1 and bank 2 and from my best knowledge you want the LTFT's to read as close to 0.00 through out the powerband.
    Honestly the ltft/stft is kind of a misunderstood beast. Do you want the ltft (long term fuel trim) to be 0.00 sure, in a perfect world. But the stft (short term fuel trim) never stays at zero. Ideally, you want the stft to go a weeee bit positive when you are WOT. It dumps more fuel in... more fuel=more power. The short term will fluctuate many times a second. The long term will not. The fuel trims are read by the O2 sensors but they are kind of controlled by the maf since the maf is telling your engine how much air is entering the system.

    Say, for example, you run nitrous, supercharger, turbo, or some type of ghetto leaf blower induction like on a hondas (lol)... the stft should skew because of the added fuel that is being shot into the motor. If it doesnt skew you can run lean. Basically the stft accounts for changes your right foot make. In a carbbed motor, you have to run it rich to account for the few seconds you will be in boost, in the new fuel injection motors the system can compensate for added airflow due to the maf, map, or desity sensors

    Well thats how i understand it anyways.

  6. #21
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    Re: Efi live vs HP tuners

    Bottom line is the only way to know your actual AFR is with a wideband. You're basically guessing without one. Bear in mind that STFTs are ignored when you're in power enrichment mode i.e. WOT or open loop (cold start, WOT condition etc before they're heated) so you have no way of knowing how lean/rich you are.

    The big picture is to get it running optimally across the whole RPM range at part throttle and WOT, with the highest timing (minus a degree or two for safety) without knock retard (meaning no actual knock) and not go pig rich as some folks tend to try when they're in a rush.

    You want it as lean as possible but not too lean to cause knock and with a good bit of timing which is what makes your HP go up. Too much timing can have the opposite effect and reduce power not to mention introduce knock, predetonation and all manner of unpleasant things. You want to hit as many cells in your VE log as you can under normal driving conditions (assuming you're doing speed density) then MAF if you're using it.

    Bit of a steep learning curve at least but there are guides out there to walk you through it.

    There are lots of variables to compensate for but the first important thing to do is get some baseline logs.

  7. #22
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    Re: Efi live vs HP tuners

    Wow, i am learning alot. Thanks for all the info. I cant wait to get rid of my diablosport and pick up another tuner...most likely hp tuner. Like a few of you have said the hp tuners seem to better to start learning on and as for the licensing im not to worried as for i will only be doing my car for now. If a friend of mine wants to have their car tuned they can pay for the credits needed. haha. Im glad to know alot of folks on here are very knowledgable in the tuning field and will point me in the right direction. Thanks again for all the help and answering my questions.

  8. #23
    GM4lyfe is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Efi live vs HP tuners

    I have HPTuners never messed with EFIlive. You can do every and anything with HPTuners, even things that you will never touch is there. HPTuners also have a forum that you can learn a lot from, also FAQ and how to's. If you do get HPTuners get the full version with Wide band support. You are shorting yourself without being able to tune with a WB. Licencing is nothing. It comes with 8 credits most GM cars take two. So I've tuned my GTO, my friends V2 CTS-V and now on my CTS-V and still have two credits left. The software is worth it, and takes time to learn to tune.

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    Re: Efi live vs HP tuners

    Step 1: Make a copy of your current stock tune.
    Step 2: archive it
    Step 3: Archive it somewhere else
    Step 4: Make a third copy and make sure it's ROM.
    Step 5:......

    If (likely when, we all do it...) you need to run back to home base and start from stock, having a clean original copy of your tune saved is nice.
    RyRidesMotoX and RyRidesMotoX like this.

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    Re: Efi live vs HP tuners

    ^^^^ I would second, third, and fourth that... you need to have a stock file somewhere for your car.

  11. #26
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    How long did it take all you folks to get a handle on it? I would like to learn. I have my car tuned now from a guy who tunes with the diablosport tuner. If i take that tune out of my car while im waiting for the hp tuner software to get here will there be any negative repercussions? I only have headers no cats and no mufflers? I would rather not spend $400 to have someone tune it remotely but if i have to i will.

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    Re: Efi live vs HP tuners

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammar View Post
    Step 1: Make a copy of your current stock tune.
    Step 2: archive it
    Step 3: Archive it somewhere else
    Step 4: Make a third copy and make sure it's ROM.
    Step 5:......

    If (likely when, we all do it...) you need to run back to home base and start from stock, having a clean original copy of your tune saved is nice.
    Good advice.

    But don't worry, efi has a library of stock tunes including all gen 1 cts-vs. I'm pretty sure HPT has something similar somewhere.

  13. #28
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    Re: Efi live vs HP tuners

    Quote Originally Posted by howanicm View Post
    How long did it take all you folks to get a handle on it? I would like to learn. I have my car tuned now from a guy who tunes with the diablosport tuner. If i take that tune out of my car while im waiting for the hp tuner software to get here will there be any negative repercussions? I only have headers no cats and no mufflers? I would rather not spend $400 to have someone tune it remotely but if i have to i will.
    I'm confused here, how can you 'tune' with diablo sport? It's only one button fire and forget type of thing. Or so I thought (never used it). Largely some timing bumps. You can read your PCM as many times as you want. No negative repercussions.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ichpen View Post
    I'm confused here, how can you 'tune' with diablo sport? It's only one button fire and forget type of thing. Or so I thought (never used it). Largely some timing bumps. You can read your PCM as many times as you want. No negative repercussions.
    Diablo sport allows advanced tuning, you have to buy a license for each car but you can do advanced tuning with it. There's a guy up here in Seattle that does Dyno tunes using your predator called Horsepower Ranch. That said I've heard it's nowhere near what HP Tuners or EFI Live can do.

    I've heard that EFI live allows for scanning of more advanced GM proprietary DIC codes beyond what HP Tuners allows for. I've scoured both websites and don't see any reference to that, any truth to this claim?

  15. #30
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    Yes you can tune with diablo sport. But it is no where near as advanced as hp or efi. There are pre set maps in the module itself but i think it mostly only advances timing a little.

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