CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN - Page 2
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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; I like this solution a lot. Particularly because of the Cast Aluminum Diff option. The diff cooler hook-ups are also ...
  1. #16
    lunarx's Avatar
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    I like this solution a lot.
    Particularly because of the Cast Aluminum Diff option.
    The diff cooler hook-ups are also much appreciated.
    For those of us leary of used, are these diffs available new?

    Also, some pics with exhaust in place would be appreciated.

  2. #17
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    - What are the material specs on the brackets? I'm assuming they're steel? Is that 3/8" or 1/2" thick?

    - How are the tube sections (where the bolts pass through) mounted to the plates? Are they countersunk into the plates, or just welded at the surface?

    - You mentioned the Tbird and MkVIII diffs. Just googling real quick it appears that the '99+ Cobra IRS is also the same (although I'm reading conflicting things about the rear cover, and don't have time right now to look for pictures).

    - A minor detail, but I don't think friction modifier is needed with the TrueTrac diff - it's a helical torque biasing diff (like a Torsen or Quaife), not a clutch-pack style limited slip diff.

    EDIT: For those asking about a kit without the diff, it appears the Cobra diff would be the easiest option. The MkVIII diff is 28-spline, whereas the Cobra diff is 31-spline, so it would match up to the rest of the Creative Steel pieces.
    '05 Stealth Grey CTS-V, Hyper Silver Linea Corse Venetos w/Continental ExtremeContact DWs (summer), black Team Dynamics ProRace 1.2 wheels with 275/35-18 R-compounds (track), Hyperblack Rota Torques (winter), KW Variant3s, V2 front brakes, Hotchkis rear sway bar, EPS cam, TEA-ported 243 heads, FAST92 intake w/LS2 TB, JBA Camaro/G8 1-3/4" shorty headers w/JBA cat pipes, Corsa exhaust, UUC motor and tranny mounts, UUC shifter, MAPerformance trailing arms, Specter cradle bushings, etc...

  3. #18
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Great work Max!!!

    I'm also VERY interested in a simple kit (no diff) just brackets & drive shaft adapter...
    and whats the story on the axles? Can i use my gforce axles, just put different cv joints on the inside?

  4. #19
    killernoodle is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    I've already got some 8.8 pumpkins and covers and stuff, how much for just axles and brackets?

  5. #20
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Im in the same boat as many here. Its just a matter of time before my diff is gonna go boom!

  6. #21
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    nice, cant wait for prices

  7. #22
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Looks like a great setup for finally a strong rear end on the V.

  8. #23
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN




    Looking forward to hearing some pricing options.

  9. #24
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    I'm with the majority on this one, I would like to see a "kit" as a low buck option. I know you have put a lot of time and effort into this, but lets break this down and compare it to the options that have available to us (without labor, of course)...

    Latest OE GETRAG unit and axles About $3200.00
    New GETRAG unit from dealer with 1 yr parts warranty
    New 1000 HP anti-hop axles
    Poly diff mount

    G-FORCE 9" $5500.00
    New driveshaft (that does not have a carrier bearing that will go bad)
    New 1000 HP "complete" axles fully assembled
    New custom fabbed housing
    New 9" center section with choice of ratio's

    8.8" $4225.00
    Adapter for stock driveshaft
    Axle shafts and inner joint only
    Rebuilt 8.8 with choice of ratio's
    Custom brackets for diff

    Here is the problem, as soon as you stand on this thing and break a driveshaft and are forced to get a replacement stocker, you are already at the price of the 9" kit.

    Now, I am not trying to minimize your effort's by any means, but I think you would be much better off (and it would be much more profitable) to look at this as a piece meal kit. You are likely to profit from quantity of sales by selling the brackets etc at a reasonable cost vice trying to compete with G-FORCE on a kit.

    Realistically speaking, even if the diff has $1k into it, that is almost $3500 in brackets, 1 pair of stubs, 2 axles, and an adapter. What would you do?

  10. #25
    killernoodle is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Quote Originally Posted by DMM View Post
    I'm with the majority on this one, I would like to see a "kit" as a low buck option. I know you have put a lot of time and effort into this, but lets break this down and compare it to the options that have available to us (without labor, of course)...

    Latest OE GETRAG unit and axles About $3200.00
    New GETRAG unit from dealer with 1 yr parts warranty
    New 1000 HP anti-hop axles
    Poly diff mount

    G-FORCE 9" $5500.00
    New driveshaft (that does not have a carrier bearing that will go bad)
    New 1000 HP "complete" axles fully assembled
    New custom fabbed housing
    New 9" center section with choice of ratio's

    8.8" $4225.00
    Adapter for stock driveshaft
    Axle shafts and inner joint only
    Rebuilt 8.8 with choice of ratio's
    Custom brackets for diff

    Here is the problem, as soon as you stand on this thing and break a driveshaft and are forced to get a replacement stocker, you are already at the price of the 9" kit.

    Now, I am not trying to minimize your effort's by any means, but I think you would be much better off (and it would be much more profitable) to look at this as a piece meal kit. You are likely to profit from quantity of sales by selling the brackets etc at a reasonable cost vice trying to compete with G-FORCE on a kit.

    Realistically speaking, even if the diff has $1k into it, that is almost $3500 in brackets, 1 pair of stubs, 2 axles, and an adapter. What would you do?
    I agree, the diff is essentially a junkyard T-Bird unit (you can pull them all day, I've got one in my garage along with a Mark Viii aluminum diff and a 31 spline LSD for either of them). The axles, lets say they cost as much as DSS axles, so about $1800 for those. The brackets are fairly simple, I'm a fabricator so nothing on the kit looks like it would take more than an hour to weld up and the steel isn't exactly made of gold. I don't really see where the cost of these kits is coming from.

    I'd honestly pay $2200 for the brackets, axles, and the driveshaft adapter and feel like it was a pretty fair price. $2500 would feel like I was overpaying, and $4000+ would feel like I'm getting screwed by the cadillac tax again.

  11. #26
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    The housing's a junkyard T-Bird unit, the diff is new. New True-Trac, new gears, new bearings, free setup? I would like to see him offer it with/without a diff but it's not overpriced imo.

  12. #27
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    What would I do?.......

    Part of my delay on getting back to this topic is frustration.

    I put together a kit that was a $4225 Bolt-in option.

    I said in my first post that it would be a good idea to put the money from the drive shaft adapter in to a new drive shaft. I built the drive shaft adapter for MY car to push along the R&D of the project, not because it was the best option, it was the best option AT THE TIME.

    It is hard on my brain to defend all of my thoughts, all of what I say, and the methods that I use to build my products.

    #1, "I want to get my own diff, how much would that cost" Now I need to dissect the kit and price each part individually and the solve the customers problems before they even happen. Example: Everybody knows that the factory carrier that comes in the T-Birds and Mark8's is a 28 spline unit.....right. If I send that customer 31 spline axles........guess what, customer is pissed because he is greasy, under his car, his fancy new parts don't fit each other and now he needs Bob to give him a ride to work tomorrow, so he can call call me on his lunch hour to ask how I'M going to fix the problem. After the phone call.....he gets on the forum to announce how disappointed he is.
    Just so everyone knows, the newer Cobra Mustangs (99-04 I believe) have a 31 spline carrier. I don't know if all the external dimension are the same as the older units or if those carriers accept aftermarket gears. Very important to know both.

    Little things like....

    #2, "How are the tubes welded to the rear bracket, do they pass through or just surface welded" ? What.......? Now I need to qualify how the brackets are assembled. There is more to ask if you want to know how well those "tubes" are stuck to the bracket/plates.
    Here it is: The base plates and the bosses are A36 material. The base plates are .375" thick and the bosses are 1.375" OD with a .562" ID which gives roughly a .400" thick wall. The bosses are weld prepped 1/4" on the end that mates to the plate. The welding process is known as "Spray Transfer". The machine voltage is set at 30 volts, the welding wire is .035 ER70S-6 and is fed at 600 inches per minute. The shielding gas is 90-10 Argon/CO2 the regulator is set at 25 CFM. The bosses are through bolted to the base plates to maintain location during the welding process. Call any local fab shop, repeat all that crap, see if they think those tubes are on there well enough. I forgot to answer the question.......Only surface welded.

    #3, "A TrueTrac is a torsion type unit and doesn't need friction modifier". I am sorry.... the recommended oil from the gear manufacturer had the additive in there, I used a different brand but added it anyway to be safe . It was $15. My bad.


    It also seems that the use of a used 8.8 housing has left the door open to devalue this diff replacement option. I have never been afraid of "used", especially on durable goods. Who would be afraid of a set of used wheels, most of the equipment is my shop was used. Go to craigslist.com, you'll see lots of used stuff that still has value. Bottom line, a differential housing doesn't wear our driving the kids back and forth to school. Hey, you don't even need to re-bore it out to reuse it.

    I'm gonna go for now, this is starting to feel like politics and I'm not running for office. My car needs sub-frame bushings and my lathe doesn't make my brain hurt.
    Our phone number is 503-316-1811 We're here M-F, 8-5 Pacific Time.
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  13. #28
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    I understand your frustration, but here is my dilemma:

    I was in the process of fabricating an 8.8 rear for my car. I was nearly done and the only things I needed were an adapter for the driveshaft (which isn't a bad idea IMO, as long as the driveshaft runs true) and axles. I can always go to DSS for the axles (which wouldn't be hard to make considering they already make caddy axles and cobra axles and its just a mix match to build them) and I can have an adapter turned for about $50-$100. You seemed to be a possible supplier for the parts I need, but you insist on selling it as a whole kit? Why would I want that when I already have 2 8.8 pumpkins collecting dust in my garage and everything else pretty much ready to go? This isn't about politics, its about economics.

    If all of us had $5500 sitting around, we would buy the geforce kit. Its a 9", has a driveshaft, etc. Great kit, but we're not all rich.
    If all of us had $4300 sitting around, we would probably save up another $1200 and get the geforce kit because we're getting better parts with it (9" vs 8.8", full axles and CVs, and a really nice driveshaft solution). If we desperately needed a bolt in kit with no cutting, we would buy yours.
    If all of us had $2500-3000 sitting around, we would probably buy your kit minus the 8.8 and go pull an 8.8 ourselves. I have 2 sitting around that would bolt right into your kit and I'd be rolling in no time.

    See what I mean? Anyone can pull a diff out of a junkyard and load a new 31 spline center section in it, or just buy the aluminum one from ford (which is roughly the same size as the cast steel, and has exactly the same mounting holes). Not everyone can pay $2000 more for you to do that for us.

    You would sell more of these if you could provide us with the things we can't get anywhere else (driveshaft adapter, axles parts, brackets) and let us provide the things we can. In the end, you'd sell more kits and most likely make more money.

    I'm just saying that I won't buy your complete kit. Period. I would definitely buy parts of the kit individually though. Think about it.

    Also, the people asking about how the brackets are welded are dumb. A good weld is always stronger than the parent material. Not to mention there is a bolt through that part anyways so who cares how its welded on? And if you are concerned with the 28/31 spline problem where people are pissed, don't be concerned. If they are too stupid to not do the research about the parts they buy, then its not your problem. Like most parts you buy for cars: you tell us the specifics about the parts (like how many splines are on your stub axles) and let us figure out how to put it all together. It isn't your job to babysit every customer, especially if they know they are buying a piece-meal kit.

  14. #29
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Let me clarify my previous statement, I was not trying to minimize what Max has done here, or say that he is overcharging for his work. Just trying to put things into perspective in order to compare our available options as I personally would for any purchase I would make.

    I think we have beaten this to death (i.e. Dana 44 vs. 8.8" IRS vs. 9" IRS) and I have said before, I think the 8.8" would be the ideal candidate for our cars up to 500 whp. Stock 8.8's and axle's last all day in a 500 whp Cobra, so why do we need all of the expensive doo dad's? You can build an 8.8 IRS from scratch out of the Summit catalog for $800.00 that will last almost forever under pretty harsh conditions. The only thing I would add is the rear girdle cover, the Cobra's do have a history of breaking covers and having cap deflection.

    Hell, if we could get someone to machine a custom "conversion" axle, we could even use the Ford stock inner joints mated to the stock Caddy outer joints for an even lower cost solution that would still be pretty stout.

    My point here is that there is always more than one way to skin a cat, unfortunately, none of the rest us have brought anything to the table as of yet so we have nothing to say about how much his R&D or time is worth.

    I commend Max for stepping to the plate and bringing us valuable solutions for our cars, and I think he has a winning product here as long as the particulars get ironed out. As I mentioned before, I think G-FORCE has the "kit" market cornered. However, an appropriately priced DIY kit that provides just enough for us weekend warriors to spend a weekend cursing would fill the void nicely and sell like hotcakes.

    EDIT: Max, we are not trying to attack you here, please do not think that for a moment. It is quite clear what everyone had on their mind so I went ahead and put it out there. I think you have a winning concept here, and we all obviously support you and want to help you succeed otherwise we would have simply said "good job" and never bought a single kit after all your effort.

    It is also a little about pride, not all of us want a complete kit ABC'd for us to mind numbingly slap together...I would rather purchase the items that only exist b/c of your ingenuity and complete the rest myself, giving myself a greater sense of accomplishment. Kinda like when the wife doesn't shout out directions during sex, I feel like I actually did something on my own.

  15. #30
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    OK, I'm Good, I'm back in the game...Let's kick some ass. Thanks for the clarification from both Killernoodle and DMM. Let me "really" look at the numbers and get back. I can tell you though I can't make the drive shaft adapter for $50-$100. I need to bow out of that right now.

    Peace
    Our phone number is 503-316-1811 We're here M-F, 8-5 Pacific Time.
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