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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Originally Posted by soulja I am really interested in this conversion. I have read through the thread. Just to be ...
  1. #211
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Quote Originally Posted by soulja View Post
    I am really interested in this conversion. I have read through the thread. Just to be clear, the 8.8 differential is either from the older Thunderbirds or older Mustang Cobras?
    keep researching. ford 8.8 IRS all over the ford line up. Cougars, Mark VIII's Ford explorer/mountaineer, cobra, Thunderbird, ect.. either iron or aluminum.. There is alot of good info in the factory five forums as alot of kit car builders use this IRS..

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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Just be weary that not all 8.8 centers are the same. The explorer one is massive, not sure if it'll fit at all and kind of offset (if you buy the whole axle assembly) as it does not sit in the middle. So you may need to cut it up a little. I think your safest bets are mustang, tbirds and cougars for fitment. Don't know if Max has any feedback on this.

    Also it seems the rear cover may need swapping. Then you have a million to chose from. Got to love Ford for the aftermarket.

    I'm still far from having a clue on how to put one together but useful research.

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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Quote Originally Posted by ichpen View Post
    Just be weary that not all 8.8 centers are the same.
    good point...

    Anyone whose researching keep poasting useful links.. here is a good one about donor cars
    http://www.factoryfive.com/table/irs/irsdonor.html
    Irs. To determine the gear ratio, and whether or not the unit has posi-traction, look at the tag that is attached to one of the differential cover bolts. The first 4 spaces signify the gear ratio and whether or not it has posi-traction. If the unit has posi-traction, then the second space will have an L in it representing (limited slip), the remaining spaces specify the gear ratio. For example, 2 L 7 3 means posi-traction with a 2.73:1 gear ratio. Most people pay a salvage yard between $300-$400 for the donor parts. Also, Ford Motorsports sells a 15lb. lighter aluminum carrier with gears and posi-traction for around $650.

    1989-1997 Thunderbird Supercoupe (All Posi-traction)
    1992-1997 Thunderbird V-8 models with rear disc brakes(some posi-traction)
    1992-1997 Lincoln Mark VIII (All aluminum carrier, most non-posi-traction)
    1989-1992 Mercury Cougar XR-7, supercharged V-6 (All posi-traction)
    1993-1997 Mercury Cougar V-8 with rear disc brakes(some posi-traction), after 94 all Cougars were called XR-7’s

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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Quote Originally Posted by shadybx7 View Post
    good point...

    Anyone whose researching keep poasting useful links.. here is a good one about donor cars
    http://www.factoryfive.com/table/irs/irsdonor.html
    Thanks. Except ford no longer sells the aluminum pumpkin as far as I can tell.

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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Quote Originally Posted by ichpen View Post
    Thanks. Except ford no longer sells the aluminum pumpkin as far as I can tell.
    You can still buy the empty housing from Ford Racing.http://www.fordracingpartsdirect.com.../m-4010-g3.htm Mike Forte also sells assembled pumpkins for $1200 with the Ford Racing housing. I don't think it is listed on his site, you have to call. http://www.fortesparts.com
    You will have to do some grinding to make the bracket fit the HD cover.

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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Quote Originally Posted by a12ozbottle View Post
    You can still buy the empty housing from Ford Racing.http://www.fordracingpartsdirect.com.../m-4010-g3.htm Mike Forte also sells assembled pumpkins for $1200 with the Ford Racing housing. I don't think it is listed on his site, you have to call. http://www.fortesparts.com
    You will have to do some grinding to make the bracket fit the HD cover.
    Thanks for the tip though I'll stick with my $80 iron TBird housing. Going to give Mike a call also to check if he still does them.

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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Kristie from Creative Steel sent me this fastener list, since there is no hardware if you don't buy the pumpkin from them. Not sure if everything in the list is required.
    Attached Files

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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Quote Originally Posted by ichpen View Post
    Here's a writeup. http://www.wavetrac.net/technical.htm.

    Basically from what I gather it's the cream of the crop of carriers. It's torque biasing with with 'wave' profile gears that come into play at zero torque conditions.

    In reality from what I hear, it's good for exit speeds or the transition from decel to accel which in more traditional diffs i.e. truetrac has a delay.

    Down side is it costs an arm and a leg. Twice the cost of a posi/truetrac at least. Is it really needed for us? Probably not. Do I want it? Yep.
    Just keep in mind that some of the Wavetrac hype is, well, hype. I've certainly had my automotive cravings, so if you really want the Wavetrac, feel free to spend extra for it. In practical application, though, I think it's highly unlikely you'll see any difference between the Wavetrac and a Torsen (or the Detroit TrueTrac, which is another gear-type torque biasing differential for the 8.8").

    It is definitely true that if you lift a wheel, a Torsen (or TrueTrac) effectively goes open. That is one downside. But how often do you lift a rear wheel in your V? And is the Wavetrac really better in that situation? I found it somewhat amusing that when I searched for "Wavetrac vs Quaife", the first thread I opened on the BMW forum (the very first search result that google showed me) had a post from a guy with a Wavetrac saying he had gotten stuck the day before because he lifted a wheel. Hmmmm...

    The "delay" that Wavetrac talks about between deceleration and acceleration is (IMO) silly. It is technically true that the diff is unloaded at that instant, but that's all it is - an instant. There are an awful lot of cars out there with Torsens (including millions of OEM applications) and I can't say I've ever heard anyone say there was a perceptible delay in application of power.

    The stock Cobra diff is the old Traction-Lok diff that Ford has been using for years, just updated with the newer carbon fiber clutch disks. It's a clutch-type limited slip. It works, but the clutch disks wear out over time. If you're doing auto-x or open track events, that could mean the diff needs to be rebuilt with new disks every year or so. If the car is just seeing "normal" driving, the diff will stay pretty tight for years. The good news is that T-Loks can be rebuilt if they start to get tired out; the bad news is that they do need to be rebuilt periodically. Brand new, you can get a 31-spline T-Lok for $220.

    FRPP appears to now offer 3 variants of the Torsen. The "normal" 31-spline Torsen T-2 (M-4204-T31) can be had for ~$540. The 31-spline Torsen T-2R from the FR500S is available for ~$640. I have a T-2R in my '89 track-prepped Mustang (although I bought it years ago, before FRPP offered it as a part). The Torsen from the Boss Mustang (M-4204-MB) is ~$900. (I'm not sure what exactly that diff is - T-2 or T-2R or something else - or why it's so expensive other than having a "Boss tax"). The bad news is that Torsens are not serviceable; the good news is that you should never have to rebuild a torque biasing diff (whether it be a Torsen or a Wavetrac or a TrueTrac), so the lack of serviceability is a moot point.

    As I've already mentioned, another option for the 8.8" is the Detroit TrueTrac, which is like a Torsen, just made by a different company (Eaton/Detroit Locker). They can be had for ~$475, and lots of Mustang guys are running those with great results. If I was putting together an 8.8" and wanted something better than the stock T-Lok, I'd most likely go with the TrueTrac - Torsen-like performance for less money.
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  9. #219
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Quote Originally Posted by AAIIIC View Post
    Just keep in mind that some of the Wavetrac hype is, well, hype. I've certainly had my automotive cravings, so if you really want the Wavetrac, feel free to spend extra for it. In practical application, though, I think it's highly unlikely you'll see any difference between the Wavetrac and a Torsen (or the Detroit TrueTrac, which is another gear-type torque biasing differential for the 8.8").

    It is definitely true that if you lift a wheel, a Torsen (or TrueTrac) effectively goes open. That is one downside. But how often do you lift a rear wheel in your V? And is the Wavetrac really better in that situation? I found it somewhat amusing that when I searched for "Wavetrac vs Quaife", the first thread I opened on the BMW forum (the very first search result that google showed me) had a post from a guy with a Wavetrac saying he had gotten stuck the day before because he lifted a wheel. Hmmmm...

    The "delay" that Wavetrac talks about between deceleration and acceleration is (IMO) silly. It is technically true that the diff is unloaded at that instant, but that's all it is - an instant. There are an awful lot of cars out there with Torsens (including millions of OEM applications) and I can't say I've ever heard anyone say there was a perceptible delay in application of power.

    The stock Cobra diff is the old Traction-Lok diff that Ford has been using for years, just updated with the newer carbon fiber clutch disks. It's a clutch-type limited slip. It works, but the clutch disks wear out over time. If you're doing auto-x or open track events, that could mean the diff needs to be rebuilt with new disks every year or so. If the car is just seeing "normal" driving, the diff will stay pretty tight for years. The good news is that T-Loks can be rebuilt if they start to get tired out; the bad news is that they do need to be rebuilt periodically. Brand new, you can get a 31-spline T-Lok for $220.

    FRPP appears to now offer 3 variants of the Torsen. The "normal" 31-spline Torsen T-2 (M-4204-T31) can be had for ~$540. The 31-spline Torsen T-2R from the FR500S is available for ~$640. I have a T-2R in my '89 track-prepped Mustang (although I bought it years ago, before FRPP offered it as a part). The Torsen from the Boss Mustang (M-4204-MB) is ~$900. (I'm not sure what exactly that diff is - T-2 or T-2R or something else - or why it's so expensive other than having a "Boss tax"). The bad news is that Torsens are not serviceable; the good news is that you should never have to rebuild a torque biasing diff (whether it be a Torsen or a Wavetrac or a TrueTrac), so the lack of serviceability is a moot point.

    As I've already mentioned, another option for the 8.8" is the Detroit TrueTrac, which is like a Torsen, just made by a different company (Eaton/Detroit Locker). They can be had for ~$475, and lots of Mustang guys are running those with great results. If I was putting together an 8.8" and wanted something better than the stock T-Lok, I'd most likely go with the TrueTrac - Torsen-like performance for less money.
    Nice write up sir, thank you. I'm actually had a change of heart also and will likely go with the truetrac/detroit locker. Can't quite justify the wavetrac price tag right now.

  10. #220
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    I have a TruTrac that came in the creative steel kit. If there is something better I would like to know what it can do cause the TruTrac is awesome.

  11. #221
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    thanks for all the info guys.. after all is said and done i will probably just go with the complete kit from CS

    http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...-problems.html
    pop or pops/clack when changing direction Fwd/Reverse, Also when i make a tight turn and give it some gas. I also get it on decel and when I get back on the gas. The pops are annoying and its behaving like a detroit locker. I think its simply the worm gears winding to its stops but I feel its loud. Anyone experience this?
    I found a few threads on SVT with complaints about the TruTrac being noisey as the locker is disengagueing.. Not a huge deal considering how loud and annoying the V1's drivetrain is in its stock form BUT Im specing out a daily driver not a race car so i want the drivetrain to be as quiet as possible.

    guys who have used the TruTrac.. how does it sound in a daily driving context?? thanks in advance for your opinion

    found the Torsen- T2 31spline for $475
    http://on-trackperformance.com/Torsen.htm

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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Quote Originally Posted by shadybx7 View Post
    thanks for all the info guys.. after all is said and done i will probably just go with the complete kit from CS

    http://www.svtperformance.com/forums...-problems.html


    I found a few threads on SVT with complaints about the TruTrac being noisey as the locker is disengagueing.. Not a huge deal considering how loud and annoying the V1's drivetrain is in its stock form BUT Im specing out a daily driver not a race car so i want the drivetrain to be as quiet as possible.

    guys who have used the TruTrac.. how does it sound in a daily driving context?? thanks in advance for your opinion

    found the Torsen- T2 31spline for $475
    http://on-trackperformance.com/Torsen.htm
    Good find. Probably the cheapest torsen I've seen. From some reading I suspect they will both clunk to an extent, they're basically based on the same worm gear principle (vs clutch packs) just different types of gears between the true trac and torsen. Still interesting to hear feedback.

  13. #223
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Torsen's don't make any noise at all. No clunks.
    Quote Originally Posted by ichpen View Post
    Good find. Probably the cheapest torsen I've seen. From some reading I suspect they will both clunk to an extent, they're basically based on the same worm gear principle (vs clutch packs) just different types of gears between the true trac and torsen. Still interesting to hear feedback.

  14. #224
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    Hey guys, I have my kit in. Ford racing 3.73's. I have to say one thing... Max was dead WRONG. This thing provides a MAJOR performance increase. I have noticed, with the Eaton TrueTrac, MUCH better cornering grip. I am certain track performance has increased greatly. No more whine, and hugely reduced hop. I have all the video from the install, and will compile it soon.


  15. #225
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    Re: CREATIVE STEEL: CTS-V 8.8 Rear Diff Swap BOLT IN

    thanks for the pics, looks like my 3in exhaust will fit.. How noisy is the Eaton Trutrac around town at slow speeds?

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