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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, V2 rotor/caliper retrofit for V1 cars in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Nice tech. So the way I think I understand your post is that the master cylinder is up to the ...
  1. #136
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    Re: V2 rotor/caliper retrofit for V1 cars

    Nice tech. So the way I think I understand your post is that the master cylinder is up to the job for bigger rotors. What if you did the V2 upgrade to the fronts only? So for a non propeller head like me, does the increased coefficient of friction area of the bigger pad and rotor contribute to brake bias up front?

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    Re: V2 rotor/caliper retrofit for V1 cars

    Quote Originally Posted by crankedupforit View Post
    Nice tech. So the way I think I understand your post is that the master cylinder is up to the job for bigger rotors. What if you did the V2 upgrade to the fronts only? So for a non propeller head like me, does the increased coefficient of friction area of the bigger pad and rotor contribute to brake bias up front?
    I believe they are only doing the front v1 to v2 caliper/rotor upgrade since there was no caliper/rotor upgrade/change on the rears when the v2 came out.

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    Re: V2 rotor/caliper retrofit for V1 cars

    Quote Originally Posted by zzilla View Post
    As far as I know Luke at Lindsey Cadillac allways have good prices, tell him you are a forum member

    Do not know the weight difference of the calipers My V1's are still on the car now

    The new Rotors are 21lbs front 18lbs rear and 9lbs for the 6piston caliper

    V1 rotors are Still on the car

    You and yooper are the only two who have come this far I assume. What have you used to enlarge the caliper hole from 12mm to 14mm? I can't imagine a simple drill bit being precise enough or tough enough for the metal being drilled.

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    Re: V2 rotor/caliper retrofit for V1 cars

    Quote Originally Posted by crankedupforit View Post
    Nice tech. So the way I think I understand your post is that the master cylinder is up to the job for bigger rotors. What if you did the V2 upgrade to the fronts only?
    As garretg said, the V2 rears are the same as the V1 rears.

    Quote Originally Posted by crankedupforit View Post
    So for a non propeller head like me, does the increased coefficient of friction area of the bigger pad and rotor contribute to brake bias up front?
    The bigger pad actually doesn't change brake torque, which is proportional to piston area and effective radius of the rotor. The coefficient of friction of the pad and the brake line pressure also factor into the torque, but if you assume those two are the same from one setup to the other (same pad compound, same master cylinder/booster/lines), then it comes down to just the caliper piston area and the rotor radius.

    In this case, the piston area is slightly smaller with the V2 calipers, but that is overcome by the greater effective radius of the V2 rotors vs the V1 rotors. So it's not the increased friction area that results in greater torque, it's the increased rotor diameter.

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    Re: V2 rotor/caliper retrofit for V1 cars

    Good Answer AAIIIC!

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    Re: V2 rotor/caliper retrofit for V1 cars

    Quote Originally Posted by AAIIIC View Post
    As garretg said, the V2 rears are the same as the V1 rears.


    The bigger pad actually doesn't change brake torque, which is proportional to piston area and effective radius of the rotor. The coefficient of friction of the pad and the brake line pressure also factor into the torque, but if you assume those two are the same from one setup to the other (same pad compound, same master cylinder/booster/lines), then it comes down to just the caliper piston area and the rotor radius.

    In this case, the piston area is slightly smaller with the V2 calipers, but that is overcome by the greater effective radius of the V2 rotors vs the V1 rotors. So it's not the increased friction area that results in greater torque, it's the increased rotor diameter.
    I agree, well said, and the pads run cooler. I had no heat cracks in the pads aftet three aggressive track days compared to the same pad compound, track, and driving style. The only difference was going from Bridgestone RE-11 to the conti/hoosier in 273/35/18 and the SKF racing hubs.

    I started out using my same braking points and quite frankly, I could have parked the car. Eventually moved down to 150' and less in the highest braking zones. Ran the first day with out brake cooling ducts as seen in pictures. Installed my brake cooling ducts for the second day at Road America and pissed off a lot of BMW and Porsche owners.

    Even got in some trail braking. Ran with traction control off and the ABS never kicked in. The V2 calipers fitted with Cobalt Racing XR1 pads on the front and rear were very consistant and I could have pushed them harder had I not wore out the tires. Autobahn has 20 turns per lap.

    The attached pictures were taken during the last sessions of each day.

  7. #142
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    Re: V2 rotor/caliper retrofit for V1 cars

    More Brake pictures.

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    Re: V2 rotor/caliper retrofit for V1 cars

    Yooper, what did you use to enlarge the caliper mounting hole from 12mm to 14mm?

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    Re: V2 rotor/caliper retrofit for V1 cars

    Hey AAIIIC, thanks for crunching the numbers. It's good to see the computation regarding the new bias, as well as the M/C's suitability for moving enough fluid.

    While it is impressive that there is any solution at all for this, what with our wacky 6-lug design, I just wish a cheap rotor alternative was available. Paying more for the rotors than the 6-pot calipers is hard to get past, especially on a fairly stock car that is 99% street driven. The new calipers look badass and I'd love to rock them, but the stock stuff is just so good on a stock car.

    I appreciate all the pictures and descriptions Yooper, so we can live vicariously with those big ass brakes. I am curious, when you say the ABS never kicked in, is that because you never needed to brake that hard, or are the tires so grippy that the brakes couldn't lock them? I've never driven a car with anything but street tires, so the race-tire level of grip is an unknown to me.

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    Re: V2 rotor/caliper retrofit for V1 cars

    Yooper did you say you trashed those Grand Am Cup tires already? Car looks a bit lower . Did you get the coil overs on?

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    Re: V2 rotor/caliper retrofit for V1 cars

    Good info...
    side note...yooper, how well has that oil cooler? held up in that postion behind the front wheel? Seems like it would be prone to getting hit with tire pickups and rocks, etc...
    2005 cadillac cts-v.r #83 nasa st3 . 2011 escalade esv . 2011 sierra denali

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    Re: V2 rotor/caliper retrofit for V1 cars

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora40 View Post
    I am curious, when you say the ABS never kicked in, is that because you never needed to brake that hard, or are the tires so grippy that the brakes couldn't lock them?
    Just speculation here, but yooper may be getting into the ABS and just not realizing it. I had an ABS wheel sensor that was intermittently going bad (broken wire) at a track event. Some sessions ABS worked fine, some sessions it stopped working in the middle of the session, some sessions it didn’t work at all. When it decided to stop working, I was quite surprised at the number of spots where I would lock up the brakes if I wasn’t careful, particularly in a couple of spots where there were pavement undulations in the braking zone or the suspension was unweighted in the middle of the zone. I had never felt ABS kicking in previously (and I know what ABS feels like), but once the wheel sensor died and the ABS was out of action I realized it was kicking in unobtrusively and helping me out when I didn’t realize it.

    Of course, there's a difference between "riding" the ABS in the braking zones and having it periodically step in when a wheel is unweighted by a bump or whatever. I try to threshold brake without hitting the ABS, and I imagine yooper does the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Junior1 View Post
    side note...yooper, how well has that oil cooler held up in that postion behind the front wheel? Seems like it would be prone to getting hit with tire pickups and rocks, etc...
    And what is that cooler? Is that the GMPP tranny cooler?

  13. #148
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    Re: V2 rotor/caliper retrofit for V1 cars

    The cooler is the GMPP trans fluid cooler. What you don't see is the hole cut in the inner fender liner with protective mesh covering the opening to the cooler. That location is not ideal or as effective as it could be IMO. I plan to do a combo trans/diff cooler with dual pass on the trans section this winter. Cooler pumps should be manually controlled instead of thermostat. More to come later.

    Back to brakes; Cooling of brake rotors is key. Yes, once I got comfortable with the Hoosiers, I found it easier to threshold brake. With cooler brakes and/or sticky tires there appears to be more feedback. At Road America I like to brake hard once, rotate the chasis just enough to be back at full throttle by the turn apex and just let the car track out.
    This requires trust in your brakes and tires and of course the correct line but, once I got the combination it was easy to duplicate. IMO fully utilizing the available brake torque once provides a quick heat rise and more time to cool before the next cycle. Timing and matching tire/brake compounds are critical so you can get off the brakes before getting caught up in the ABS cycle which generates heat.

    Yes I did take all the grip out of the conti's, but I practiced quite a bit on a private roundy round track to find the limits of the harder compound which put quite a few heat cycles on the tires. Running the track clockwise helped as there are more right turns at RA and there was plenty of room for the many spins until things started to work. If one spins out on a track and no one sees it, does that mean it didn't happen?

    I did not lower the car yet. Still running FG2 with Hotchkis sways and probably a little more negative camber than needed now. The pictures where the rear appears to be lowered was just pure luck on the timing of the photo. The camera caught the right moment where the chasis rotated and full throttle had been applied.

    Even though the rotor castings being used for the V2 calipers throw a lot of air by design, I run 3" brake ducts and may have to go to 4" on the more technical short tracks.

    I plan to run a tire with softer compound hoping for more grip.

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    Re: V2 rotor/caliper retrofit for V1 cars

    Any updates?

    Luke mentioned that he may be able to get better prices on the calipers and hardware if multiple people sign up to order, sort of an improvised GP so to speak.

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    Re: V2 rotor/caliper retrofit for V1 cars

    Yooper was kind enough to provide us with these pictures of my Team Dynamics on his V2 caliper/rotor project at Road America this weekend. No issues with fit whatsoever. Bill has put a tremendous amount of thought and work into this project and has consulted and planned with lots of folks that we didn't even know about. We owe him big time for this effort. I'm sure he will be reporting back on his findings on all the new goodies he's been prototyping.

    Road America was our last hurrah for the year. I managed to wring every last drop out of the V for the season. I corded my Conti GACs and turned my UUC 2 piece rotors into the shape of potato chips for the ride home. Talk about warped. The interesting thing was the event was so full that the open novice group was full of last minute entries (like Bill and I ) which meant there were novices, intermediates, and advanced drivers in our group. That made things interesting.






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