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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, Best "Bang-for-your-Buck" Road Course Mods? in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Originally Posted by crankedupforit R6s,as rebadged Continentals, are pretty plentiful right now coming off the Grand Am circuit. They can ...
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    Re: Best "Bang-for-your-Buck" Road Course Mods?

    Quote Originally Posted by crankedupforit View Post
    R6s,as rebadged Continentals, are pretty plentiful right now coming off the Grand Am circuit. They can be had pretty cheap. I think the R100s are full racing slicks while the R6s are DOT and have two grooves. A guy I know who runs GT Trackdays said the R100s are super sticky but when they let go it's all over. R6s are a bit more progressive but certainly not as forgiving as a street tire. If the price is right R6s are hard to beat and are considered by some as the benchmark of DOT slicks. For me it was about cost. Good used R6s with 75% or more tread life are cheap right now.
    I like the idea of a more progressive tire, I'm not a pro driver, so I want a tire that won't bite me the first chance it gets...

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    Re: Best "Bang-for-your-Buck" Road Course Mods?

    This might be a little off topic but i have noticed everyone chooses the GC setup and gets custom spring rates with FG2 Shocks. Is it just as good to get a full setup like ksports and stiffer springs as it would be cheaper then FG2's. Or are the KW V3 the only recommended full coilover setup for heavy track use and super stiff springs.

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    Re: Best "Bang-for-your-Buck" Road Course Mods?

    Quote Originally Posted by crankedupforit View Post
    R6s,as rebadged Continentals, are pretty plentiful right now coming off the Grand Am circuit. Good used R6s with 75% or more tread life are cheap right now.
    I might give those a shot when my current Hankook Z214s are used up. As you said, the deals are hard to beat, and the 275/35-18 seems to be a common size among the competitors, so there's plenty of them around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godsmistake103 View Post
    This might be a little off topic but i have noticed everyone chooses the GC setup and gets custom spring rates with FG2 Shocks. Is it just as good to get a full setup like ksports and stiffer springs as it would be cheaper then FG2's. Or are the KW V3 the only recommended full coilover setup for heavy track use and super stiff springs.
    I don't know if anyone has actually put the KSports through their paces, although there may have been some guys at the V Day(s) running them. I imagine they would probably do just fine for the occasional track day. It would be interesting to do a back-to-back drive on track just to see how the KSports compare to the KWs (and to the FG2/GC combo or the QA1/GC combo). Speaking of which, that's another option you can look into - I think the QA1s are cheaper and easier to source than the discontinued (I believe) FG2s.

    I think my biggest concern would be the ride height of the KSports - from pictures I've seen, it looks like even with them maxed out as high as they'll go, they're still lower than where I would want to be. I don't think I could run the 275/35-18s I'm running on track now with the ride height as low as the KSports seem to be.

    And I guess it depends on your definition of "super stiff", but the KWs really aren't that stiff. They come with 10kg/mm front and 9kg/mm rear springs (so ~560#/in and ~505#/in). As you've probably seen, the guys who have put GCs on with FG2s typically run 500f/550r, or 600f/650r. I haven't asked how much higher one could go with the spring rates without having to have the KWs revalved.

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    Re: Best "Bang-for-your-Buck" Road Course Mods?

    Quote Originally Posted by AAIIIC View Post
    I might give those a shot when my current Hankook Z214s are used up. As you said, the deals are hard to beat, and the 275/35-18 seems to be a common size among the competitors, so there's plenty of them around.
    Everyone says these are R6s and they sorta are They are the Grand Am Cup Hoosiers which are more of an enduro tire with a steel belt and a harder R3 compound. They are not DOT. They look exactly like an R6. They are great for heavier cars like ours and talking with the guys from Trinity Tek Racing Development (the guy with the black V with "relentless" graphics), you can expect a dozen or more sessions on them from track day events like we do. Except maybe you Pat since you have a reputation for being a brake pad serial killer.

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    Re: Best "Bang-for-your-Buck" Road Course Mods?

    Yea im just curious because for springs rates above 550 it seems its pref to have FG2s. But are the struts that come with Ksports or KW good enough to run higher than that. Because each company does offer replacement springs that can be any number of rates that you would desire. I think im going to end up trying ksports with their 650 springs or closest ones to it on the setup. Just as it is a complete swap and i've seen good things from people who have them.

    Id really be interested in seeing what all the different combinations are like compared to each other. GC with FG2s or QA1s, Ksports and KWs all with varying spring rates if anyone has even done that yet.

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    Re: Best "Bang-for-your-Buck" Road Course Mods?

    Quote Originally Posted by crankedupforit View Post
    Everyone says these are R6s and they sorta are They are the Grand Am Cup Hoosiers which are more of an enduro tire with a steel belt and a harder R3 compound. They are not DOT. They look exactly like an R6. They are great for heavier cars like ours and talking with the guys from Trinity Tek Racing Development (the guy with the black V with "relentless" graphics), you can expect a dozen or more sessions on them from track day events like we do. Except maybe you Pat since you have a reputation for being a brake pad serial killer.
    I just recieved the used R888s (275/35zr18) I ordered last week. Got 6 of 'em. Not sure anybody cares, but I thought I would share anyway.

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    Re: Best "Bang-for-your-Buck" Road Course Mods?

    First off, the original poster said that he was looking for feedback from guys who track their Vs. By that, I shouldn't be talking, as I just got my V and have yet to track it. I'm working on the same mod setup myself. However, I have tracked A LOT (as in, probably over 300 track days) and I'm a test driver and writer for Excellence : The Magazine About Porsche.

    I just wanted to chime in on my own generic track day mods/spends. This has been true with anything I've ever driven, including in tests for the magazine. I hope they help. (By the way, this is the best thread that I've seen on this forum so far.)

    1 - I know it's annoying, but spend money on instruction before anything else. All you're going to do by waiting is form bad habits. Don't do it. Track Days 1-4 should be with an instructor. Then, start spending money on the car other than some core things, such as -
    2 - Best bang for the buck that I ever use is Motul 600 Dot 4 brake fluid. It sucks to come in early because your brake fluid is boiling. This happens more often than the pads burning up, but that might not be the same with a 4,000lb car.
    3 - Hawk makes awesome pads. It looks like these cars have great brake venting too. Again, brake fade sucks. It ends your sessions early. It's dangerous.
    4 - These cars get hot. Take off that huge quilt of an engine cover and put on some Z06 fuel rail covers. Put a 160 degree thermostat in. This will require a tune, but guys like Frost will do them for $150. There are other things to deal with the heat too. Plus, the tune (for $150) will give you some HP and take out the stupid CAGS (thing that keeps you from shifting into 2nd sometimes).

    Guys, the car handles well. Sure, coilovers are great and will be a benefit. But the car handles. I don't get why it's at the top of the list, given his question. Just my opinion. I mean, it ran an 8:22 on the N-Ring.

    I also want to say that I've done some tire testing, and the best two things I've driven for street/track are the Toyo R888s mentioned above and the new Bridgestone RE-11s. Both are incredible, and far better at talking to you than the Michelin Cups. Most of the things that I mentioned (other than instruction) are not actually performance enhancers but performance prolongers (making up words is cool). But once you get that done, NOTHING will effect your lap times and fun like tires. Someone said the opposite earlier and I can't disagree more.

    Paying attention to this and that, springs and bushings... it's all good. But before a real set of lightweight wheels and tires? No way. For example - I had stock 19s on my 911S (Moton suspension, supercharged, etc) with Pirelle P-Zero Rossos (as it came new). Then, I got a set of Volk TE-37s in the same size but with Toyo R888s. I had both sets with me during the 4 days in a row that I was at VIR. I swapped them back and forth and back and forth. I couldn't get the heavier stock wheels and Pirellis within 7 and a half seconds of the time of my other setup. That is a huge difference fellas. Those are roughly two minute laps. Also, at VIR, it's kind of something everyone says by saying that roughly 75HP gets you another second, all else equal.

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    Re: Best "Bang-for-your-Buck" Road Course Mods?

    Quote Originally Posted by tweeter81 View Post
    I just recieved the used R888s (275/35zr18) I ordered last week. Got 6 of 'em. Not sure anybody cares, but I thought I would share anyway.
    Can't go wrong with R888s. Atleast for the track. I've never ridden them but I heard they are barely streetable. Hard to find those up by me for some reason. Dedicated track tires are much more economical in the long run since my street/track tires (AD08s) barely last a year at $1100 a set. Used scrubs for about $400 a set make more sense if you do 3-4 track outings a year.

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    Re: Best "Bang-for-your-Buck" Road Course Mods?

    Let me chime in on the R888's. I believe that they are not quite the right tire for this car. They don't seem to handle the weight of the V. I've killed one set in 3 track days, and I saw another set (on another V) delaminate on the same day. Might try the RE-11's next time.

    Also the R888 whine like crazy on the road.

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    Re: Best "Bang-for-your-Buck" Road Course Mods?

    Quote Originally Posted by blakt out View Post
    First off, the original poster said that he was looking for feedback from guys who track their Vs. By that, I shouldn't be talking, as I just got my V and have yet to track it. I'm working on the same mod setup myself. However, I have tracked A LOT (as in, probably over 300 track days) and I'm a test driver and writer for Excellence : The Magazine About Porsche.

    I just wanted to chime in on my own generic track day mods/spends. This has been true with anything I've ever driven, including in tests for the magazine. I hope they help. (By the way, this is the best thread that I've seen on this forum so far.)

    1 - I know it's annoying, but spend money on instruction before anything else. All you're going to do by waiting is form bad habits. Don't do it. Track Days 1-4 should be with an instructor. Then, start spending money on the car other than some core things, such as -
    2 - Best bang for the buck that I ever use is Motul 600 Dot 4 brake fluid. It sucks to come in early because your brake fluid is boiling. This happens more often than the pads burning up, but that might not be the same with a 4,000lb car.
    3 - Hawk makes awesome pads. It looks like these cars have great brake venting too. Again, brake fade sucks. It ends your sessions early. It's dangerous.
    4 - These cars get hot. Take off that huge quilt of an engine cover and put on some Z06 fuel rail covers. Put a 160 degree thermostat in. This will require a tune, but guys like Frost will do them for $150. There are other things to deal with the heat too. Plus, the tune (for $150) will give you some HP and take out the stupid CAGS (thing that keeps you from shifting into 2nd sometimes).

    Guys, the car handles well. Sure, coilovers are great and will be a benefit. But the car handles. I don't get why it's at the top of the list, given his question. Just my opinion. I mean, it ran an 8:22 on the N-Ring.

    I also want to say that I've done some tire testing, and the best two things I've driven for street/track are the Toyo R888s mentioned above and the new Bridgestone RE-11s. Both are incredible, and far better at talking to you than the Michelin Cups. Most of the things that I mentioned (other than instruction) are not actually performance enhancers but performance prolongers (making up words is cool). But once you get that done, NOTHING will effect your lap times and fun like tires. Someone said the opposite earlier and I can't disagree more.

    Paying attention to this and that, springs and bushings... it's all good. But before a real set of lightweight wheels and tires? No way. For example - I had stock 19s on my 911S (Moton suspension, supercharged, etc) with Pirelle P-Zero Rossos (as it came new). Then, I got a set of Volk TE-37s in the same size but with Toyo R888s. I had both sets with me during the 4 days in a row that I was at VIR. I swapped them back and forth and back and forth. I couldn't get the heavier stock wheels and Pirellis within 7 and a half seconds of the time of my other setup. That is a huge difference fellas. Those are roughly two minute laps. Also, at VIR, it's kind of something everyone says by saying that roughly 75HP gets you another second, all else equal.
    Amen to that! Ive been researching tires and time attack(road racing) series for the past 6 months. I'm a novice racer(1 lapping day last summer) but spetacular on GT5 haha, Anyway wanting to have lower starting costs Ive already purchased a set of 245/40/18 and 275/35/18 RE-11's. I'm expecting them to last 2 summers(~12000kms) on the street and 5-10 half lapping/competition days. The other 2 tires I've given serious thought to are Pilot Super Sports and Yoko AD08's. I dont think you can go wrong with any of the 3 for double duty and cant get better without going to a dedicated R-Comp tire. Keep in mind RE-11's are directional and with a staggered setup the tires wont be rotating at all so checking/adjusting tire pressures and wear weekly on the street will be a must for max tire life. On the track obviously every session.

    For the V1 the only things I would do so you dont get frusturated having empty pockets starting out for autox/RR is:

    One of the above tires in a staggered setup(or really any tire to start!)
    Short shifter w/UUC bushings
    Creative Steel motor mounts
    Creative steel front diff bushing
    Dot 4 brake fluid(different depending on how often you want to bleed it)
    Redline power steering fluid
    Stay with stock HP1001 pads and GM rotors
    Alignment!!!
    Its common for our rads to not last and they're at the age they start to go anyway but replacment is up to you. Another stocker could potentially last another 5yrs if you dont lap to often but a full welded aluminum rad would definately be most reliable.

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    Re: Best "Bang-for-your-Buck" Road Course Mods?

    Quote Originally Posted by rjoffe View Post
    Let me chime in on the R888's. I believe that they are not quite the right tire for this car. They don't seem to handle the weight of the V. I've killed one set in 3 track days, and I saw another set (on another V) delaminate on the same day. Might try the RE-11's next time.

    Also the R888 whine like crazy on the road.
    R888s were used on the World Challenge V1s back in the day, but those cars were pretty lightweight. I get thrashed every time I say this but the original F1 Supercar EMTs were about the stickiest street tire I've every ridden on the V.

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    Re: Best "Bang-for-your-Buck" Road Course Mods?

    Quote Originally Posted by rjoffe View Post
    Let me chime in on the R888's. I believe that they are not quite the right tire for this car. They don't seem to handle the weight of the V. I've killed one set in 3 track days, and I saw another set (on another V) delaminate on the same day. Might try the RE-11's next time.

    Also the R888 whine like crazy on the road.

    rjoffe I agree certain tires and size of tires are suited for different vehicle weights and 3 tracks days is definately extreme! How many sessions total did you have on the R888's?

    I'm pretty sure when a tire delaminates its not due to fault of the tire design but due to a defective tire.

    I'm only being skeptical and curious here as I enjoy talking tires I quite often see/hear of tires not lasting long enough but then others being just fine with good life. I 100% agree 3 track days is ridiculous but possibly there were conditions that caused the quick wear. Really it can only be 3 things: Track surface(heavily pitted tracks), driver style(aggressiveness) or vehicle setup(weight dist/alignment). Pro racers always have to balance speed and tire life. I'm just curious what you thought was the culprit of your short tire life without just blaming the tire itself if quick wear was the only thing it actually displayed. Why did it wear quickly? You cant just say our cars are heavy. Weight doesnt matter to a tire if it has the capacity to carry it. More weight just means more energy to complete the same task. Sure you cant compare a 2000lb racecar to a 4000lb street car everyday with tire life but you can wear out a tire just as quickly on a 2000lb car as you can a 4000lb car. Just conversation... not questioning your opinion in a negative manner.

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    Re: Best "Bang-for-your-Buck" Road Course Mods?

    Quote Originally Posted by crankedupforit View Post
    R888s were used on the World Challenge V1s back in the day, but those cars were pretty lightweight. I get thrashed every time I say this but the original F1 Supercar EMTs were about the stickiest street tire I've every ridden on the V.
    The world challenge V1's basically had what our cars have but every part was a new/lighter part designed from the original. With a weight of 3000lbs I cant even guess what production parts they actually used.
    http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...3cde997d9c.pdf

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    Re: Best "Bang-for-your-Buck" Road Course Mods?


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    Re: Best "Bang-for-your-Buck" Road Course Mods?

    So my specifics :

    V1, Stock Motor, Hotchkis Sways, stock fe2 shocks. Team Dynamics Wheels 9". Toyo R888 265x35R18.

    3 Track Days, 4-6 sessions per day 20-35 minutes per session. I am an intermediate driver, and probably drive 8/10 on the track on average.

    About 45 miles drive from and to track. (Summit Point Main). R888's were only used to drive to and from track plus sessions.

    Purchased tires new from Tire Rack, not shaved. I heat cycled the tires on local roads 1 week before first use. Local highway cloverleaf over and over until I got sick .

    I do rotate the tires regularly front to back, but would have to unmount to rotate left to right which I did not do, but was planning on it before noticed excessive wear on outside set.

    I checked pressures regularly, Trying to start somewhere near 32 at start of session, and ending up in low to mid 40's (could be an issue here). Checked surface temps using hand held infrared, was not looking or recording temps, but trying to determine if temp was evenly spread across surface.

    Tire wear is on side triangular wear bars looks appropriate.

    Inside tires look and wore fine, probably 50% or so tread used.

    Outside tires have probable 70% tread used. Outside tires bubbled in a half dozen places. Could see eraser sized holes with cord showing through. Holes were both in center and mid way to edge.

    I do not want to run on any tires where cord is showing through

    Let me know if you want more details. I have not replaced tires but need to do so as season is approaching. I want a dedicated track tire that I can also use in a short (45 mile) trip to the track. On paper the R888's fit taht bill, but did not seem to last as long as I wanted them too.

    Ron

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