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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, Brake ducting for the V1? in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Originally Posted by AAIIIC I got some pieces from Luke that were left over from his attempt to have someone ...
  1. #16
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    Re: Brake ducting for the V1?

    Quote Originally Posted by AAIIIC View Post
    I got some pieces from Luke that were left over from his attempt to have someone make a kit. In the coming weeks I'll have to experiment a bit with what he gave me.
    It's been a while since I came back to this. I made some progress, but I'm not sure how much it's helping.

    First, the parts that Luke gave me turned out to be pretty much worthless. I'm not sure who did the work for Luke - the quality of the parts was quite nice, but the functionality was terrible. The outlet of the spindle adapters would've been directing about 80% of the airflow onto the inner face of the rotor, which would've been a near certain recipe for premature cracking of rotors.




    So, all that ended up in the recycle bin and I started from scratch (kind of). I found that my brother had a duct kit that he had picked up for his Eclipse and never installed. The kit came from Forge Motorsport, but they don't appear to make it anymore. It had probably 10ft of high temp hose plus a couple of spindle adapter/nozzles to direct the air to the center section of the rotors. The kit was actually intended for an EVO, and the spindle adapters were designed to bolt on under the caliper:


    (Not the most illustrative picture, I just found that on an EVO site.)

    Well, the bolt spacing on the EVO's Brembo calipers isn't the same as the V's Brembo calipers, so I lopped the mounting ears off the spindle adapters and looked for some other way to mount them.

    Sandwiched between the front hub and the front spindle is a piece of sheet metal that holds the ABS sensor wiring and also acts as a heat shield for the lower balljoint:

    (In the Subaru world I know guys have had problems with premature failure of the balljoints due to radiant heat breaking down the grease seal, so I thought it was rather ingenious that GM extended the sheet metal down enough to shield the balljoint. I can't think of any other reason for that "extra" bit of metal, so I'm almost positive that's the purpose of that section.)

    I chopped and bent that piece of metal a bit:


    ...and bolted the Forge nozzles to the reshaped bracket:


    That picture also shows the hose routing. The one big downside of using these Forge bits and pieces is that the hose is only 2" diameter rather than the more common (and more effective) 3" diameter. The nozzles then kind of flare out from the 2" round inlet to a probably 4 x 1.5" or so outlet so that the air is directed into the center of the rotor and not onto the inner face of the rotor. You can kind of see that here:


    The elbow coming out of the duct below the foglight is one of those 3" adjustable ducting pieces you can get at Home Depot or Lowes. On short notice I wasn't able to find a good 3" to 2" adapter, so the 2" hose is just inserted into the 3" duct piece and then duct taped in place. I had no signs of the duct tape blowing out, so I think the air was going where I wanted it to go, but obviously that's not the optimum setup. Also, as Rollbar said before, the hose routing is somewhat tortuous, with a couple of pretty tight bends. I'm sure that's not helping the flow rate, but there's not much that can be done about that, what with those silly wheels and tires being in the way. Here's what it looks like with the fender liner back in place (I cut a portion of the liner off to allow the hose to come through):


    One of my clearance concerns was with the nozzle and the swaybar. Here you can see how little clearance there is with the wheel turned in:


    After a few days with this setup on track I haven't seen/heard any signs of contact, so I think it's all good. The next step is to move up to 3" hose all the way, but I need to figure out the nozzles before I can do that. I haven't seen any sign that the tires are rubbing the hose, and I think even with 3" I should be OK.

    The unfortunate part is that all of that work seems to have done pretty much nothing. The brakes feel the same as they did before, which isn't good enough. I put some Tempilaq paint on my rotors before this past weekend's event; it's designed to liquify at the rated temperature (750F, 1000F and 1250F). Well, it all liquified and pretty much disappeared, so the rotors were getting over 1250F.


    I'll fiddle with this some more over the "off-season" and hopefully be back with a better setup come spring time.
    '05 Stealth Grey CTS-V, Hyper Silver Linea Corse Venetos w/Continental ExtremeContact DWs (summer), black Team Dynamics ProRace 1.2 wheels with 275/35-18 R-compounds (track), Hyperblack Rota Torques (winter), KW Variant3s, V2 front brakes, Hotchkis rear sway bar, EPS cam, TEA-ported 243 heads, FAST92 intake w/LS2 TB, JBA Camaro/G8 1-3/4" shorty headers w/JBA cat pipes, Corsa exhaust, UUC motor and tranny mounts, UUC shifter, MAPerformance trailing arms, Specter cradle bushings, etc...

  2. #17
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    Re: Brake ducting for the V1?

    Nice write up.
    CTS V Redline 05 . MOTOR-- Katech LS6 stage II H&C, Kooks 1 3/4, FAST102 w Nick W 102 TB, Corsa, Lingenfelter CAI, Stealth intake tube, UUC shifter,UUC motor, trans and diff mount. Exedy GT04SD Twin Disk clutch . Mocal oil cooler BRAKES/SUSPENSION-- UUC 2 pc. rotors, Hotchkiss sways, KW V3s coil overs, MAP trailing arms, SW cradle bushings and BMR toe rods, corner weighed. Team Dynamics ProRace wheels, 275/35/18 GAC Hoosier (track). Allston Rollbar, Sparco seats and Schroth harnesses.

  3. #18
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    Re: Brake ducting for the V1?

    Ditto on the write up.

    Whatever you do with front intake to rotor ducting I'd use caution before doing this to a daily driver. Can make things real hairy when driving in the rain.

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    rjoffe is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Brake ducting for the V1?

    I had a conversation with the guys at Behe last year. I have not had a chance to act on it, but one of the recommendations they made was to forget the hose and front intake, instead they recommended a small length of hose and a scoop on the front control arms. The idea was to grab air from under the car just inboard of the tires.

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    Rollbar is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Brake ducting for the V1?

    Has anyone tried radio-controlled jet airplane engines for fans for 3 in. ducts.The sizes offered seem to be ideal and have adequate thrust.Sounds goofy but I'll try anything.They cost 80-120 bucks.

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    Re: Brake ducting for the V1?

    got any links to this ?

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    Re: Brake ducting for the V1?

    What I've commonly seen used are bilge blowers from boats. I've seen them in 3" and 4" varieties. Not sure what the RC plane engines flow, but I've seen 150cfm or so for the bilge blowers. There's quite a lot of info online just searching for "bilge blower brake cooling".

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    Rollbar is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Brake ducting for the V1?

    Nitroplanes.com - EDF jets - metal electric ducted fans.They are rated in Kg. thrust - don't know how to convert to cfm

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    Re: Brake ducting for the V1?

    Quote Originally Posted by AAIIIC View Post
    What I've commonly seen used are bilge blowers from boats. I've seen them in 3" and 4" varieties. Not sure what the RC plane engines flow, but I've seen 150cfm or so for the bilge blowers. There's quite a lot of info online just searching for "bilge blower brake cooling".
    very cool data search here on "bilge blower brake cooling"
    http://www.bsrproducts.com./Products...CATID=10000347
    too bad not more pictures...

    I wonder IF bolting a blower right on the spindle would work? no ducting....
    .....wonder how much is blower weights?

    Going to research this more...
    anyone have any ideas or "tried that, doesnt work"

    --Jerry

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    Re: Brake ducting for the V1?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrycecco View Post
    very cool data search here on "bilge blower brake cooling"
    http://www.bsrproducts.com./Products...CATID=10000347
    too bad not more pictures...
    Just based on the lack of pictures and lack of technical specs, I'm not sure what to make of those. The flow numbers (282cfm and 255cfm) seem awfully high based on looking at some of the bilge blowers on the market. This 4" blower shows 240cfm, but that's at 4.5 amps, so it seems unlikely to me that the 3" CV Products one would flow 282cfm at only 3.5 amps. Other 4" blowers seem to be in the 220-240cfm range as well, while the various 3" blowers seem to be rated in the 135-165cfm range. I suppose it's possible that the CV blower just has a much more efficient blade & motor design - they certainly want more $$ for it than the bilge blowers.

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrycecco View Post
    I wonder IF bolting a blower right on the spindle would work? no ducting....
    .....wonder how much is blower weights?
    I'm not sure how you would bolt it directly to the spindle with no ducting and get the air where it needs to go. And I'm really not sure where you think a (roughly) 6x4x4" blower would fit on the spindle, while still allowing one to turn the wheel!

    My thinking, having looked at this a bit, is that one could mount the blower vertically on the frame rail on either side of the strut. Suction would be at the top (drawing air from up in the top of the wheel well) and discharge would be pointed at the ground. A short (~12" or so) section of hose with a 90deg bend would direct the air to the rotor. With the blower right next to the strut it shouldn't interfere with the turning of the wheel/tire, even at full lock (I think).

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrycecco View Post
    Going to research this more...
    anyone have any ideas or "tried that, doesnt work"
    As already mentioned, these sorts of blowers have been used before. It seems to me that most of the time they're used in parallel with a straight run of hose, so on the fast sections of track the straight hose (coming from the front bumper area somewhere) is cooling the rotor, but in the slower sections the blower provides some cooling air.

    The blowers just don't flow a whole lot, so I can't see them being a solution all by themselves. If you do the math, a 282cfm blower (assuming that number is legit) would be pushing air at 65mph through a 3" duct. I'm pretty sure the flow numbers are rated with the blower all by itself (nothing on the inlet or outlet), so adding a foot or more of hose on the outlet with a bend in it and some sort of nozzle on the end is going to reduce that flow rate. The more believable 140cfm or so from the 3" bilge blowers would get you only half that. At both VIR and Summit Point I'm averaging 85+mph, so in theory a duct being fed from the front bumper is cramming in more air. Of course, to get air from the front bumper requires a more tortuous path, but I still think it's doing better than a blower pushing air at maybe 40-50mph.

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    Re: Brake ducting for the V1?

    So, after the unsurprisingly disappointing results with the 2" ducts, it was time to try fitting some bigger ducts on the car. As is often the case, I procrastinated on this project and didn't get anything really accomplished as I was rolling into the first event of the year. In the few days prior to that event I tried to run some 3" hose in a similar arrangement to the 2" hose routing pictured above, but it wasn't working out - the hose would've been too exposed to being rubbed by the tires. On track it might not have been an issue, since the wheels don't have to turn all that sharply, but I didn't want to find out the hard way.

    So, after doing my first two events of the season, I decided to reattack. I first picked up some C5 Vette spindle plates from LG Racing. I knew the Vette and CTS-V hub bolt patterns were the same (the 3-bolt pattern where the hub bolts to the spindle, not the 5/6-lug wheel bolt pattern), so they would at least be the right dimensions to fit the hub. Of course, the bolt pattern was oriented about 45deg off, but that was a simple fix - just redrill the 3 holes. The other issue was that the nozzle was positioned too far out so that (much like the pictures of the adapter I showed earlier in this thread) the air would be blowing onto the inner face of the rotor rather than into the center of the hat. So, I mocked things up on the car, took some measurements, cut the nozzles off, then had a local machine shop weld the nozzles back on about 3/4" or so closer to the center of the hub. I also had them take 1/8" off the outer perimeter of the spindle plates, as they were just a little too big to fit inside 1-piece rotors. (They fit OK inside the 2-piece track rotors, but since I intend to leave the spindle adapters on the car all the time, they needed to fit inside the 1-piece street rotors, too.)

    I had to chop the corner off (top right) to clear the caliper mounting ear. I ended up having to chop a half-moon out down lower, too, for the lower mounting ear, but that's not done yet in this pic...


    Here you can see that the plate fits very nicely in the center hat of the rotor, and the nozzle is directing air to the proper location:


    When Luke had given me the parts of the failed brake duct project, it included 2 plastic elbow duct thingies. I wish I knew what they were from, as they appear to be OEM parts from something. It looks like there may have been part numbers on them that have been sanded off, but I can't swear to that. Anyway, these plastic parts have about a 4.5" opening, that then tapers down to a flattened section that's about 5x1.5", then open out again and turn 90deg to a 3.5" outlet.


    (You can see to the left of my foot that the texture of the piece is different than the rest - I think that's where there may have been part numbers that have been ground/sanded off.)

    The white piece is a 3" to 4" adapter I got at Lowe's. I was actually looking for the aluminum ductwork 3-to-4" reducer, but stumbled across the plastic piece, and I'm glad I did. I actually cut ~1-1.5" off the end of the black elbow piece, jammed the white plastic reducer in the now 4" opening, then used a few pop rivets to hold it in place. The silver piece is (once again) one of those 3" adjustable elbow pieces from the vent ducting section at Lowe's/Home Depot (aka "Big Blue/Big Orange Racing Supplies" ). It fit nice and tight into the white plastic piece, so I didn't even fasten them together with pop rivets or anything like that.

    The other end of the adjustable aluminum elbow goes into the back of the stock foglight/brake duct housing:

    (My intention was to duct tape that in place, but when I installed them the night before the track event I forgot to do that, and they stayed in place just fine, soooo...)

    And with about 16" or so of high temp hose (the 16" allows it to expand/contract as I turn the wheels):


    The hose came with the other stuff that Luke gave me. The nozzle on the spindle adapter is only 3", so I cut the wire reinforcement out of the last couple/few inches of the orange hose, then just folded it over on itself and hose clamped it in place on the nozzle.

    Of course, to fit all this in there, the fender liner had to give up some material:

    All the fasteners are still there, and thus far (having driven >1100mi on street and track) they seem perfectly happy to stay installed even with big holes cut in them.

    So, the completed package:


    When I did the 2" ducts I tested them at the track and found they were doing essentially nothing. I went out with the bumper openings taped over, did 5 or 6 laps to get them all nice and hot, then pulled into the hot pits and checked the rotor temps with an IR pyrometer. I then tore all the tape off the bumper to open up the duct intakes, did some more laps, and checked again - I don't remember what numbers I was seeing, but rotor temps were the same, if not a little higher. Booooo!

    I did the same testing with these new ducts. In the first session I went out with the inlets taped over, did some laps, then came in to check rotor temps - they were ~970F and ~1000F. I removed the tape and went back out, but the session ended after just a couple more laps, so I didn't get temps again. For the next session I went out with the inlets open and run 5 or 6 laps again, definitely pushing harder than I had in the first session (my fastest lap in the 2nd session was ~3sec quicker than in the 1st session). I came into the hot pits to check the rotors and they were both in the 880-900F range.

    I'll admit, it's not the most scientific testing, but the fact that the rotors were cooler despite the facts that ambient temps were higher and I was pushing the car harder is pretty good IMO.
    '05 Stealth Grey CTS-V, Hyper Silver Linea Corse Venetos w/Continental ExtremeContact DWs (summer), black Team Dynamics ProRace 1.2 wheels with 275/35-18 R-compounds (track), Hyperblack Rota Torques (winter), KW Variant3s, V2 front brakes, Hotchkis rear sway bar, EPS cam, TEA-ported 243 heads, FAST92 intake w/LS2 TB, JBA Camaro/G8 1-3/4" shorty headers w/JBA cat pipes, Corsa exhaust, UUC motor and tranny mounts, UUC shifter, MAPerformance trailing arms, Specter cradle bushings, etc...

  12. #27
    EdmundGTP is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Brake ducting for the V1?

    Interesting updates. Keep them coming!

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    Re: Brake ducting for the V1?

    Quote Originally Posted by AAIIIC View Post
    I'll admit, it's not the most scientific testing, but the fact that the rotors were cooler despite the facts that ambient temps were higher and I was pushing the car harder is pretty good IMO.
    Any idea what the temps were without the ducts but without the tape?

    Seems you would like to know what the stock set up results were.
    CTS V Redline 05 . MOTOR-- Katech LS6 stage II H&C, Kooks 1 3/4, FAST102 w Nick W 102 TB, Corsa, Lingenfelter CAI, Stealth intake tube, UUC shifter,UUC motor, trans and diff mount. Exedy GT04SD Twin Disk clutch . Mocal oil cooler BRAKES/SUSPENSION-- UUC 2 pc. rotors, Hotchkiss sways, KW V3s coil overs, MAP trailing arms, SW cradle bushings and BMR toe rods, corner weighed. Team Dynamics ProRace wheels, 275/35/18 GAC Hoosier (track). Allston Rollbar, Sparco seats and Schroth harnesses.

  14. #29
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    Re: Brake ducting for the V1?

    Thanks for an outstanding writeup.

    BTW, Aircraft Spruce has the kind of ducting that could be used for brakes. I've used one type of ducting for supercharger intake piping and it worked quite well. Smooth bore, very flexible, and heat resistant.

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