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Summary table of swaybar options

20K views 80 replies 30 participants last post by  BradCTSV 
#1 ·
I originally put this over on the CTS forum, as I was trying to find out what the base and Sport CTS swaybar diameters were. I ended up getting the measurements myself from a couple of cars that were at Lindsay when I was there with my car. Still not positive on the CTS diameters - it would be interesting to check the parts database to see if there are different part numbers for front and rear on the base and Sport models. Just seems strange that they would "upgrade" by only 1mm, but that's what the vernier caliper said.

The Hotchkis and Addco bars are advertised in inch units, while the GMPP and Eibach bars are advertised in millimeters, so I converted them all to make them easier to compare.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Diam. (in). . . Diam.(mm) . . . Construction . . Comments
Hotchkis CTS-V front . .. 1-1/4 . . . . .. 31.75 . . . . . . . tubular .. . . . . Sold as front/rear kit (2280)
Hotchkis CTS-V rear . . . 1 . . . . . . .. . 25.40 . . . . . . . ?

Hotchkis CTS front . . . . 1-3/16 . . . . . 30.16 . . . . . . . tubular .. . . . . Sold as front/rear kit (2279)
Hotchkis CTS rear . .. . . 13/16 . . . .. . 20.64 . . . . . . . ?

Addco CTS-V front . . .. 1-3/8 . . . . . . 33.66 . . . . . . . solid . . . . . . . 2290
Addco CTS-V rear . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . 25.40 . . . . . . . solid . . . . . . . 2289

Addco CTS front . . . . . 1-1/8 . . . . . . 28.58 . . . . . . . solid . . . . . . . 2200
Addco CTS rear . . . .. . 7/8 . . . . . .. . 22.23 . . . . . . . solid . . . . . . . 2201

Eibach front . . . . . . . . 1.10 . . . . .. . 28.00 . . . . . . . tubular . . . . . Sold as front/rear kit (3878.320) or individually (3878.310 front, 3878.312 rear)
Eibach rear . . . .. . . . . 0.87 . . . . .. . 22.00 . . . . . . . tubular

GMPP front . . . . . . . . . 1.38 . . . . .. . 35.00 . . . . . . . hollow . . . . . . No longer available
GMPP rear . . . .. . . . . . 0.94 . . . . .. . 24.00 . . . . . . . solid

Stock CTS-V front . . . . 1.04 . . . . .. . 26.50 . . . . . . . tubular (?)
Stock CTS-V rear . . .. . 0.83 . . . . .. . 21.00 . . . . . . . solid (?)

Base CTS front . . . . . . 0.91 . . . . .. . 23.00 . . . . . . . tubular (?)
Base CTS rear . . . .. . . 0.63 . . . . .. . 16.00 . . . . . . . (?)

Sport CTS front . . .. . . 0.91 . . . . .. . 23.00 . . . . . . . tubular (?)
Sport CTS rear . . . . . . 0.63 . . . . .. . 16.00 . . . . . . . (?)
 
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#2 ·
I have the GMPP bars and the front one is a beast. It eats a set of links every year. Your data confirms why. Nice post.
 
#7 ·
Interesting. Did you talk to Addco directly? I noticed they're always listed with a significant shipping delay on summitracing.com, but I just figured that meant they were basically made to order (since there's not enough demand to keep them on the shelves).

I installed the Hotchkis bars a couple weeks ago, but may reinstall my stock front bar, as the handling balance isn't where I want it to be.
 
#8 ·
Time for the dumb question of the day.

Bit off topic, but just how does the swaybar work??? The reason I ask is because the end links are so flimsy. I had one come apart in my hands.
 
#10 ·
Since, the swaybar aka torsion bar is mounted to the suspension, the suspension is actually moving in the opposite direction as the chassis.
So, if the chassis dips down from a hard turn on one side of the vehicle, then the suspension is actually moving up and of course, the opposite occurs on the other side, when the chassis is moving up, the suspension is actually dropping down. The horizontal bar transmitts an opposing force to the other side, but because it is attached to vertical links, the links receive the brunt of the force being transmitted.
The bigger the bar, the more force transmitted, but the stiffer the ride.
From here, you get into understeer vs oversteer and how much force needs to be generated by way of front bar vs rear bar vs spring rate, vehicle weight, FWD or RWD. It's over my head.
 
#9 ·
Anyone have info about the Eibach sways.
I read somewhere that the Katech V had them.
Just wondering of anyone had some experience with em...
 
#12 ·
Resurrected this thread since I've been thinking about going back to a stock sway bar setup with my KWs. Interesting that the GMPP bars have a huge disparity in the front to rear diameter over the other options. About 46% larger in the front than back. Probably the most popular option is the Hotchkiss which is only a difference of 25%. The stockers are about 26%. The Addcos 32.5% and the Eibachs 27%.
Strange that you would think the GM bars would induce lot's of under steer since the front tires may saturate so much quicker (faster weight transfer) than the rears. Do the GM engineers know something we don't. I rode these GM bars for 2 years and really couldn't find anything unusual about them. Some low speed push but nothing much more than stock. I really liked them. Just strange that these bars have an entirely different balance front to rear than the others. Come to think of it the GMPP rear was adjustable and could be stiffened up. Just seems weird the GM racing guys went this route.
 
#26 ·
Resurrected this thread since I've been thinking about going back to a stock sway bar setup with my KWs. Interesting that the GMPP bars have a huge disparity in the front to rear diameter over the other options. About 46% larger in the front than back. Probably the most popular option is the Hotchkiss which is only a difference of 25%. The stockers are about 26%. The Addcos 32.5% and the Eibachs 27%. ...
Don't you have to take into account the fact that some of these are tubular and some are solid?

It would seem that what would be highly useful is if each manufacturer included a standardized measure of torsional strength, such as ft-lbs per degree of torsional deflection.
 
#14 ·
And the difference between your Hotchkiss rear and the stock front is less than 5% (plus your running and extra 1kg spring in the rear). A pretty sharp contrast to the GM setup of 46%. With the inboard rear springs, the wheel rate is lower than the front anyway so you probably would need to do something really radical to get the car to have terminal oversteer. If I had to guess, the KWs are a game changer. In any case, my sense is you just have to get out there and see what works much like you did. I'm going with the front stock bar first and maybe mess with the rear shock setting to see if that dials in things since I still get some low speed push.
 
#15 ·
I gotta say with the GM bars installed @ Summit, the instructor, on more than 1 occasion said the car felt planted and balanced.
Too bad this thread didn't pop up a few days earlier, I would have asked Andy Pilgrim the reasoning behind the sizing. His eyes did light up a little when I told him I had a set on my car. He said to just go buy an extra set of wheels and to put Hoosier A6's on...
 
#22 ·
Too bad this thread didn't pop up a few days earlier, I would have asked Andy Pilgrim the reasoning behind the sizing. His eyes did light up a little when I told him I had a set on my car. He said to just go buy an extra set of wheels and to put Hoosier A6's on...
When he drove my car at V Day 4 he said it pushed too much, and said that every car he'd driven with the Hotchkis sway bars was like that.

Funny thing is they ran the 3 and 4 way adjustable penske setup from Anze on the challenge cars though.
I would be absolutely stunned if the GMPP sway bars were used on the WC cars. AFAIK the GMPP sway bars (and diff cooler kit and trans cooler kit and rear control arms with stiffer bushings, etc) were made to support guys running the CTS-Vs in SCCA T2 competition. I would be willing to bet that the WC cars ran "standard" adjustable blade type anti-roll bars like every other dedicated race car.
 
#24 · (Edited)
AFAIK the GMPP sway bars (and diff cooler kit and trans cooler kit and rear control arms with stiffer bushings, etc) were made to support guys running the CTS-Vs in SCCA T2 competition. I would be willing to bet that the WC cars ran "standard" adjustable blade type anti-roll bars like every other dedicated race car.
That is my understanding as well. There was a T2 player in the forum a couple years back that used the GM bars. Here was his classified.

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JMBCTSV
JMBCTSV is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic

Join Date
May 2007
Location
Pontiac, MI
Posts
121
Drives
Cadillac CTS-V 2004 street, Cadillac CTS-V 2004 Race

FS: SCCA T2 CTS-V Race Car

See info below and also in classifieds. I am going to miss this car dearly, but I am now forced to drive a BowTie. Many pics on the website.

For Sale 2004 Cadillac CTS-V SCCA T2 Race Car

$35,000 (including all spares and extras)

Contact: John Buttermore jmb92@comcast.net with inquires
Location: Pontiac, MI
More info / pictures / history: http://www.nearbrookmotorsports.com

For sale is the Nearbrook Motorsports Cadillac CTS-V SCCA Touring 2 Class Race Car. Perfect for the beginner or serious competitor this vehicle comes fully turnkey ready to win events the day you receive it with a laundry list of spares that will make any required maintenance a snap. This is an excellent opportunity for a track day car or for someone to enter door to door competition in SCCA, NASA, or other sanctioning bodies.

Incredibly low maintenance. I cannot stress this enough. Other than tires and front brake pads nearly nothing on this car ever wears out. Run all season without changing wheel bearings, brake calipers, Tie rod ends, etc. . . ., only change front rotors twice all YEAR, rears, never! This car is made out of the best parts available and they do not wear out. Fully sorted and competitive against top National Competition. Lap Times at certain tracks are as follows; these were all run in 2007.

GingerMan 1:33.7
Grattan 1:28.1
Mid Ohio (Club) 1:41.6
Road America 2:33.9
Heartland Park 1:46.9

Also included with the vehicle is the entire library of data acquisition run with the vehicle utilizing Race Technology DL1 hardware from all tracks listed above as well as many others. In car video is also available.

This car started 6th and finished 6th at the 2007 SCCA National Championship Runoffs, and recorded 3 National Wins in 2007. Here are some high points of the vehicle, and an extensive list of spares and extras included.

Vehicle Features
-Professionally built and maintained by Phoenix Performance
-Full SCCA Legal Roll Cage and active Log Book 100% Legal
-Cobra Race Seat accommodates large drivers (current driver 6’ 2” 200 lbs)
-Differential and Transmission Coolers with switches and gauges in dash
-Engine Oil Cooler
-Ron Davis Radiator
-Top of the line synthetic fluids used everywhere
-GM Racing springs and sway bars, w/ adj. endlinks
-Ohlins Custom built adjustable dampers
-ATL Fuel cell in trunk
-Custom 3” straight pipe exhaust from cat back
-Custom 18x9.5” CCW wheels to fit 275/35/18 tires front and rear
-New engine with only 1 event on it (353 rwhp)

Spares and Extra Parts
-3 total full sets of 18x9.5” CCW wheels (2 classic, 1 Corsair14)
-Spare strong used LS6 engine
-Spare Transmission
-Spare Differential predrilled and vented for coolers
-Spare Clutch assembly
Also included is our current inventory of spares pasted below

Cadillac CTS-V Inventory *Yellow is low stock
Changes Stock Part Number Description
1/1 89047726/7 Brake Caliper, Front R/L
1/1 89047742/3 Brake Caliper, Rear L/R
2 used / 2 new 25750248 Brake Rotor, Front
2 25750257 Brake Rotor, Rear
3 Pagid RS14 Brake Pads, Front Pad Design 2487
1 new Pagid RS15 Brake Pads, Front Pad Design 2487
2 89047725 Brake Pads, Front
1 89047744 Brake Pads, Rear
0 HB194.F.665 Brake Pads, Rear Hawk HPS
1u/1u, 1n/1n 88892773/4 Outer Tie Rod Ends, Front L/R
2n,2u,1stds 12413103 Wheel Bearing, Front
1u,1std 89047669 Wheel Bearing, Rear
2 25753858 Accelerator Pedal
2 12578552 P/S Pulley
2 21997867 P/S Pump
1 89060184 P/S Hose
1 NPN CCW Wheel Center
10 9594683 Lug Nuts
1 89058605 Front Diff Mount Bushing
2 12575389 Oxygen Sensor
1 21575657 Oxygen Sensor
1 12569429 Oxygen Sensor
2 25763176 Fuel Filter
8 12571164 Spark Plug
1 12578553 Accessory Belt
1 89060339 ABS Controller Stock
2 12563288 Ignition Coil Bracket
1 89017491 Starter
0 25773368 Driveshaft
1 15793756 Differential
1used 25750935 Alternator
1 12586243 ECU
2 12582190 Ignition Coil Wire
1 12560228 Crank Sensor
1 12561211 CMP Sensor
2 88957128 Spring Seat
4 12558948 Ignition Coil
2 25756701 Air Filter
1 24235494 Transmission
1 NPN Jounce Bumper Kit
1 set Sachs T2 Shocks
1 npn GM Racing Front Sway Bar
2 10358090 Catalyst Pipe
1/1 12578029/30 Exhaust Manifold R/L
2 15826015 LH Headlamp (14 is RH)
1 25750699 Air Box
1 25762623 Rear Sway Bar
1/1 NPN/NPN Full Tie Rod Set
1 set Control Arms / Toe Rod All
 
#16 ·
Those bars are sweet. The GM guys have figured out the right set up for the FG2s. The rear bar has a stiffer mounting hole. Someday when your brave try that set up. I bet the car turns in even better.
 
#17 ·
Funny thing is they ran the 3 and 4 way adjustable penske setup from Anze on the challenge cars though. Wonder how that setup would work if it could fit...
 
#28 ·
Too bad we don't have the ability to swap all these on a single V1 then run it on a track and quantify the degree of understeer, neutral steer, or oversteer. That way, we could hold all the other variables constant.

I wonder if such results could be extended and used to predict behavior with other shock setups, other tires, other road surfaces, etc, etc. Hm-m ...

Yeah, I know, it's a pipedream.
 
#31 ·
We could just sell our cars, put the money together, and buy the challenge cars...I'll run the north east events, you guys divide up the rest of the regions...
 
#30 · (Edited)
AAIIC and crankedupforit: you guys are correct, the GMPP sways were probably designed for T2 guys. John B had them. Maybe Bobby Fischer too?
The world challenge cars definitely have the adjustable blade type with penske adjustables.
 
#32 ·
Lol. Good plan. I mean they're only $125k each right now. (I posted a link in the General section to the for sale thread for those haven't seen it). I'll take the rocky mountain events. ;)

Actually it would be nice to see what kind of design characteristics/parts could be adapted to our street cars.
 
#33 ·
Spoke to Dan over there, they are about 200k each. That price online is for 1 car plus some of the spares. I figure by the time we are all done with our cars it will be close to that amount in total...
 
#34 ·
Looks like Suspension Techniques has added front and rear bars for the 1st gen CTS-Vs. (Apparently they don't realize they'll also fit the non-V CTS, as their online catalog only calls up the V.) Rear is a solid 15/16" (23.8mm). Their catalog shows the front is 13/16" (20.6mm), which doesn't make any sense.

On a side note, I was surprised to find that this thread has been archived, and thus didn't show up when I used the site's search function - I had to use the google search bar to find it. I wonder if posting to it will pull it out of archive status?
 
#38 ·
thanks for the info.. great thread.. +1 for stickied status
 
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