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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, Braille Battery Install in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Originally Posted by atdeneve Irrelevant? I don't see how it's not relevant. If someone is interested in installing a Braille ...
  1. #16
    darkman's Avatar
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    Re: Braille Battery Install

    Quote Originally Posted by atdeneve View Post
    Irrelevant? I don't see how it's not relevant.

    If someone is interested in installing a Braille lightweight battery, I'd think he or she would, more than likely, be interested in knowing that they can get that same battery from Deka for significantly less.

    But, hey, feel free to disregard the 'irrelevant' info and shell out more than double the money on a repackaged, but otherwise identical, $140-250 battery.

    Do they work? Well, they are lighter. And they will start the car. So, I guess they do. But there are compromises. And the lighter you go, the more careful you have to be to not kill the battery. Especially at 15 lbs and under. If you don't drive it every day, you have to keep it on a trickle charger. Or the battery will die. You can't sit in the car, with the ignition on accessory, and listen to music. Or you will kill the battery. If you have a tune that allows the fans to remain on after shutting the engine off, you will kill the battery.

    With that said, I don't think most people will have too much of a problem with the 21 pounders in daily use.
    Fair enough, but I did see that your earlier posts said that Deka was cheaper. Pricing is relevant, branding is not. It was like telling me that my Kenmore appliance from Sears is really made by Whirlpool, or vice versa.

  2. #17
    atdeneve is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Braille Battery Install

    The whole point of my first post was that you could get the same battery for significantly less. If only the packaging was different, but the price was the same, I could care less. Branding alone was never the issue, however, repackaging of items is often accompanied by a price difference (otherwise, why'd they even bother repackaging?).

    In the following post, VfastCaddy, although he agreed that they may be made by Deka, seemed unsure whether the specs would be the same; i.e., you pay more to get more, ergo, the Braille units are, perhaps, more 'robust'. So, my second post was to assure him that they are, in fact, the same exact batteries with the same exact specs.

    These are nothing more than motorcycle/ATV/personal watercraft batteries that are superficially repackaged as lightweight automobile batteries for the 'enthusiast' and subsequently up-charged by a substantial amount.

  3. #18
    SoJersey05V is offline Banned
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    Re: Braille Battery Install

    Quote Originally Posted by SkullV View Post
    You're starting to become a serious troll around here....
    oh well then dont read my posts. we are frre to speak as we wish on here

    with that said... those are some nice numbers your car made on the juice!!!! i could use some of that..

    now back on topic... it would have made more sense to do light weight battery and also mount it in the trunk!!!!

  4. #19
    atdeneve is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Braille Battery Install

    Quote Originally Posted by SoJersey05V View Post
    it would have made more sense to do light weight battery and also mount it in the trunk!!!!
    Once you've lost a good amount of the stock batteries weight, you are not liable to gain as much by moving it to the trunk.

    You have to assess whether relocating 21 pounds or less from the stock battery location, which is situated wholly behind the front axle, to the trunk, which is located behind the rear axle, really gains you any benefits in handling, keeping in mind that you'll likely be adding a good portion of the lost weight back with the heavy gauge wiring routed the length of the car. At that point, it's diminishing returns, if any.

    If I had to choose, I think I'd rather lose more weight and keep it between the axles, than lose less weight and relocate some of it outside the axles.

  5. #20
    SoJersey05V is offline Banned
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    Re: Braille Battery Install

    very true, you make great points!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by atdeneve View Post
    Once you've lost a good amount of the stock batteries weight, you are not liable to gain as much by moving it to the trunk.

    You have to assess whether relocating 21 pounds or less from the stock battery location, which is situated wholly behind the front axle, to the trunk, which is located behind the rear axle, really gains you any benefits in handling, keeping in mind that you'll likely be adding a good portion of the lost weight back with the heavy gauge wiring routed the length of the car. At that point, it's diminishing returns, if any.

    If I had to choose, I think I'd rather lose more weight and keep it between the axles, than lose less weight and relocate some of it outside the axles.

  6. #21
    darkman's Avatar
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    Re: Braille Battery Install

    Quote Originally Posted by atdeneve View Post
    The whole point of my first post was that you could get the same battery for significantly less. If only the packaging was different, but the price was the same, I could care less. Branding alone was never the issue, however, repackaging of items is often accompanied by a price difference (otherwise, why'd they even bother repackaging?).

    In the following post, VfastCaddy, although he agreed that they may be made by Deka, seemed unsure whether the specs would be the same; i.e., you pay more to get more, ergo, the Braille units are, perhaps, more 'robust'. So, my second post was to assure him that they are, in fact, the same exact batteries with the same exact specs.

    These are nothing more than motorcycle/ATV/personal watercraft batteries that are superficially repackaged as lightweight automobile batteries for the 'enthusiast' and subsequently up-charged by a substantial amount.
    I did a little searching on the web. It was hardly an exhaustive search, but the Dekas I found were price higher than the Braziles. What gives?


    http://www.apexbattery.com/car-batte...batteries.html

  7. #22
    atdeneve is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Braille Battery Install

    Quote Originally Posted by darkman View Post
    I did a little searching on the web. It was hardly an exhaustive search, but the Dekas I found were price higher than the Braziles. What gives?


    http://www.apexbattery.com/car-batte...batteries.html


    Are you looking at each batteries specific counterpart?
    You would have to look at Deka's specific unit that is analogous to Braille's to assess the relative prices. Most of the more heavy duty, high capacity, endurance models that show, if you just pull up random Deka models in a search, are going to be significantly more than these relatively smaller 'motorcycle' batteries.

    The following list will give you an idea as to their relative lowest prices:

    B106....(6.6 lbs)....~$127-------------Deka ETX9.....(7 lbs)......~$45
    B129....(9 lbs)......~$134-------------Deka ETX12....(9 lbs)......~$51
    B14115..(11.5 lbs)...~$137-------------Deka ETX14....(12 lbs).....~$55
    ..........................-------------Deka ETX15....(11 lbs).....~$56
    B2015...(15 lbs).....~$143-------------Deka ETX20L...(15.5 lbs)...~$63
    B2317...(17 lbs).....~$154-------------Deka ETX16....(17 lbs).....~$57
    B2618...(18 lbs).....~$188-------------Deka ETX18L...(18 lbs).....~$62
    B3121...(21 lbs).....~$167-------------Deka ETX 30L..(21.7 lbs)...~$79


    Although the individual prices may fluctuate a bit every now and then, the relative gap between the prices of equivalent batteries from the two brands remains, more or less, significant.

  8. #23
    04vman is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Braille Battery Install

    So what's the verdict? Good upgrade or not worth the time. Rebranded or not, if it's a truly comparable battery to OE, than 14 pounds would be a nice weight reduction. Or maybe I should just go on a diet. I'm about 20 lbs over weight, so I know if I put about a month in at the gym, and cut out the brew, I could easily shed 15 lbs. Then there'd be no need for the light weight battery! We should be reducing mass in ourselves to get the real performance increase.

    Think about it, we reduce 7 lbs per rotor, but we go on vacation for 10 days and come back 7 lbs heavier, you just negated all the money you spent for your weight reduction upgrade.
    Just some food for thought

  9. #24
    darkman's Avatar
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    Re: Braille Battery Install

    Quote Originally Posted by atdeneve View Post
    Are you looking at each batteries specific counterpart?
    You would have to look at Deka's specific unit that is analogous to Braille's to assess the relative prices. Most of the more heavy duty, high capacity, endurance models that show, if you just pull up random Deka models in a search, are going to be significantly more than these relatively smaller 'motorcycle' batteries.

    The following list will give you an idea as to their relative lowest prices:

    B106....(6.6 lbs)....~$127-------------Deka ETX9.....(7 lbs)......~$45
    B129....(9 lbs)......~$134-------------Deka ETX12....(9 lbs)......~$51
    B14115..(11.5 lbs)...~$137-------------Deka ETX14....(12 lbs).....~$55
    ..........................-------------Deka ETX15....(11 lbs).....~$56
    B2015...(15 lbs).....~$143-------------Deka ETX20L...(15.5 lbs)...~$63
    B2317...(17 lbs).....~$154-------------Deka ETX16....(17 lbs).....~$57
    B2618...(18 lbs).....~$188-------------Deka ETX18L...(18 lbs).....~$62
    B3121...(21 lbs).....~$167-------------Deka ETX 30L..(21.7 lbs)...~$79

    Although the individual prices may fluctuate a bit every now and then, the relative gap between the prices of equivalent batteries from the two brands remains, more or less, significant.
    I don’t think the batteries you listed are all that analogous.

    Specifically, the Braille B106 has 220 cold cranking amps (CCA) and 10 amp hours (AH) whereas the Deka ETX9 has only 120 CCA/8 AH.

    The Braille 129 has CCA of 323 and 23 AH whereas the Deka 12 has only 180 CCA and 12 AH.

    The Braille 14115 has CCA of 486 whereas the Deka 14L has only 160 CCA the Deka 15L has only 210.

    The Braille 2015 has CCA of 425 and 21 AH whereas the Deka 20L has only 270 CCA and 17.5 AH.

    The Braille 2317 has CCA of 475 and 23 AH whereas the Deka 16L has only 275 CCA and 19 AH.

    The Braille 2618 has CCA of 472 and 26 AH whereas the Deka 18L has only 278 CCA and 18 AH.

    Finally, the Braille 3121 has CCA of 550 and31 AH whereas the Deka 30L has only 370 CCA and 26 AH.

  10. #25
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    Re: Braille Battery Install

    The ODYSSEY 1200 is the same size and even has side terminals that you can mount to.

    However, if your looking for weight savings, forget it.

    The PC 1200 measures 7 11/16" long, 6 1/2"" wide, 6 5/8" tall and weighs 37.5 pounds.

    Link:

    http://www.odysseybatteries.com/batt...1200series.htm

    Is one KICK ASS battery though.

    1200 cranking amps for 5 seconds
    1090 cranking amps for 10 seconds
    900 cranking amps for 20 seconds
    825 cranking amps for 30 seconds
    Short circuit current over 2600A
    44 amp hours
    78 minute reserve capacity with 25amp load
    CCA - 550

  11. #26
    atdeneve is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Braille Battery Install

    Quote Originally Posted by darkman View Post
    I don’t think the batteries you listed are all that analogous.

    Specifically, the Braille B106 has 220 cold cranking amps (CCA) and 10 amp hours (AH) whereas the Deka ETX9 has only 120 CCA/8 AH.

    The Braille 129 has CCA of 323 and 23 AH whereas the Deka 12 has only 180 CCA and 12 AH.

    The Braille 14115 has CCA of 486 whereas the Deka 14L has only 160 CCA the Deka 15L has only 210.

    The Braille 2015 has CCA of 425 and 21 AH whereas the Deka 20L has only 270 CCA and 17.5 AH.

    The Braille 2317 has CCA of 475 and 23 AH whereas the Deka 16L has only 275 CCA and 19 AH.

    The Braille 2618 has CCA of 472 and 26 AH whereas the Deka 18L has only 278 CCA and 18 AH.

    Finally, the Braille 3121 has CCA of 550 and31 AH whereas the Deka 30L has only 370 CCA and 26 AH.
    Darkman, if you survey a variety of batteries, across different manufacturers, and look at each of the batteries' CCAs against their respective size/weights, you'll see that there is a strong correlation between those two specs. As the size/weight of a battery increases, so does its CCA. This occurs in a very predictable fashion without significant variations or outliers.

    However, toss in the Braille batteries and they just do not fit accordingly on that continuum. At all. They have abnormally higher CCAs for their given size/weight. Braille is the lone anomaly. Now, is that because, they are using some kind of technology not available to (or, simply, not utilized by) others, thereby warranting that significant premium? I don't think so.

    If you look at Braille's literature on their battery technology, they utilize the same exact diagram, outlining the same exact battery build, as that of EastPenn's Deka batteries. So that would more than suggest that there is no special reason why Braille would have such abnormally high CCAs for any given size/weight.

    Moreover, Braille does not provide any information on how they test their batteries. Most all other battery manufacturers do indicate the relevant conditions of testing and they, invariably, perform testing at standard temperatures (i.e., CCA at 0˚F). Braille's advertised CCAs are highly unlikely to be performed at 0˚F.

    Braille never seems to directly refute or address such claims and basic questions on their batteries. It is of my un-humble opinion that, in such instances, when a manufacturer does not, or is not, willing to divulge such information as standard testing procedures (which can hardly be construed as encroaching on proprietary information), something stinks. In this case, that stink is the wonderful aroma of bolshevick.

    Regardless of all that smoke-and-mirrors nonsense and what it already strongly suggests, if I recall correctly, I believe it was the Deka ETX 14/20/30s that were tested against the Braille counterparts, with the end result being that there was no difference between them. Test the Deka's yourself at room temp and they'll be puttin out CCAs identical to the Braille's.

    With that said, I use a Braille battery just for the asinine sake of aesthetics (sort of a finishing-touch type douche-baggery), not because I think it is superior to the Deka. I'd just as readily toss the Deka back in there on the track.

  12. #27
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    Re: Braille Battery Install

    Quote Originally Posted by atdeneve View Post
    Darkman, if you survey a variety of batteries, across different manufacturers, and look at each of the batteries' CCAs against their respective size/weights, you'll see that there is a strong correlation between those two specs. As the size/weight of a battery increases, so does its CCA. This occurs in a very predictable fashion without significant variations or outliers.

    However, toss in the Braille batteries and they just do not fit accordingly on that continuum. At all. They have abnormally higher CCAs for their given size/weight. Braille is the lone anomaly. Now, is that because, they are using some kind of technology not available to (or, simply, not utilized by) others, thereby warranting that significant premium? I don't think so.

    If you look at Braille's literature on their battery technology, they utilize the same exact diagram, outlining the same exact battery build, as that of EastPenn's Deka batteries. So that would more than suggest that there is no special reason why Braille would have such abnormally high CCAs for any given size/weight.

    Moreover, Braille does not provide any information on how they test their batteries. Most all other battery manufacturers do indicate the relevant conditions of testing and they, invariably, perform testing at standard temperatures (i.e., CCA at 0˚F). Braille's advertised CCAs are highly unlikely to be performed at 0˚F.

    Braille never seems to directly refute or address such claims and basic questions on their batteries. It is of my un-humble opinion that, in such instances, when a manufacturer does not, or is not, willing to divulge such information as standard testing procedures (which can hardly be construed as encroaching on proprietary information), something stinks. In this case, that stink is the wonderful aroma of bolshevick.

    Regardless of all that smoke-and-mirrors nonsense and what it already strongly suggests, if I recall correctly, I believe it was the Deka ETX 14/20/30s that were tested against the Braille counterparts, with the end result being that there was no difference between them. Test the Deka's yourself at room temp and they'll be puttin out CCAs identical to the Braille's.

    With that said, I use a Braille battery just for the asinine sake of aesthetics (sort of a finishing-touch type douche-baggery), not because I think it is superior to the Deka. I'd just as readily toss the Deka back in there on the track.
    All of the Braille CCA numbers that I provided were based on 0 degrees F for 30 seconds. You may choose to disbelieve or dispute the Brailles data but any accusation that Brailles does not provide full disclosure is not true. Shown below is the data for one of the batteries and it is at least as complete as that published for most batteries. Additionally, if one drills down on the footnotes Braille gives for the CCA data Brailles provides the explanations attached in the PDFs. Thus, the basis for the Brailles data is completely transparent to the marketplace.


    Model Information
    Model Number:
    Braille SKU #B3121
    Model Name:
    21 lb Extreme Use Battery
    Physical Specifications
    BCI Group:
    Usable for all Group Sizes
    Length:
    6.6"
    Width:
    5.2"
    Height (without posts):
    6.8"
    Minimum Weight:
    21 lbs
    Performance
    Voltage:
    12 Volts
    Full Charge Voltage:
    13.8 Volts
    Short Circuit Current (Max Cranking Amps):
    3000 est.
    Pulse Cranking Amps (PCA) 5 sec @ 80F:
    1380
    Pulse Cranking Amps (PCA) 10 sec @ 80F:
    1207
    Pulse Cranking Amps 20 sec @ 80F:
    1066
    Cranking Amps 30 sec @ 80F:
    892
    Cranking Amps 30 sec @ 32F:
    742
    Cold Cranking Amps 30 sec @ 0F:
    550
    Reserve Capacity:
    1hr 15mins
    Capacity (C/20 rate):
    31 amp hr
    Internal Resistance:
    4.0 milliohms (.004 ohms)
    Life Cycle @ 10% DOD:
    3100 cycles est.

  13. #28
    Eric Pittman is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Braille Battery Install

    I would like some more details on how you installed it? Which kit did you use and did you buy the GM terminal adapters from them too? Would also like to know how much stress it can take. Will it start the car w/ AC, radio,etc running?

  14. #29
    SuperVeee is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Braille Battery Install

    Geez it's not like you guys are trying to agree on Health Care Reform - you are talking about batteries (although you have lots of good data). Nobody wants starting issues in their car bacause they put a 7lb motorcycle battery in their car that is only capable of running the V at the track after a trickle charge.

    So what we all want to know is what is the cooresponding weight difference of battery X, Y or Z when you compare the same CCA (at what ever temp) as our stock battery? Once we have the exact part number of the X, Y or Z battery then we just have to pick the one with the lowest price.

  15. #30
    VfastCaddy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Braille Battery Install

    Update on the Braille installation, after a month: I can't tell any difference in electrical performance over the standard battery. I've been watching the battery voltage on the info screen. It wanders around from 14.4 to 13.4 but always says voltage OK. Starting, etc. is all exactly the same. It's been hot, so the A/C's been on continuously. Some night driving, but not a lot. Sat at Publix waitin' on the wife with the lights on for 10 minutes one time, restart was normal. No cold weather yet, of course. We'll have to see how it handles that this winter.

    One note on installation: The battery won't sit flat in the standard tray without some sort of pad underneath to shim it up a bit. I had a silicone rubber vibe absorbing pad (from McMaster-Carr) sitting around that was perfect. It's about 3/8" thick.

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