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15K views 123 replies 36 participants last post by  6104696 
#1 ·
I have read on this site that the V was advertised at 400H.P. and is not near that. I also read that Ford paid out on the 99 SVT for the same thing. You tech guys should keep us(me, the layman/hellman) informed. I will file first. FOR THE SIMPLE FACT THAT G.M HASN'T ANSWERED ANY MAIL(of any kind) ON OUR CONCERNS!!! '05's are being built and my oil alarm still goes off. F' them all. I work hard for my car. Every payment I make I take it out on that car. Who will help? I am already copying a lot of tech. posts just in case. You guys know a lot af stuff. I thank all you tech. guys.
 
#3 ·
few posts on the internet doesn't help much. You may have to have the owners gather around and actually get their cars dyno'ed all at once to prove that everyone is actually dynoing low in same condition. Also it seems like lot of your rear diff is going bad which means it can also rob horsepower. Anyways lawsuit isn't a simple thing to win against a giant corp such as gm then again, they may just settle to keep the general public happy (actually they just don't want any bad publicity)


edit: forget chassis dyno since advertised figure is at flywheel which means engine dyno will be the key.
 
#4 ·
Devil_concours said:
edit: forget chassis dyno since advertised figure is at flywheel which means engine dyno will be the key.
yeah.....if you guys went in with chassis dyno numbers, you wouldn't have a chance. i don't think anyone here has had their car dynoed at the flywheel. if someone did that, we'd know a lot clearer what's going on.
 
#5 ·
Agree with the rest... there is no factual information gained from the chassis dyno. Someone is going to have to volunteer to have their engine pulled and the full intake, exhaust, and accessory drives setup on an engine dyno. Anyone? I hear silence.

OR...

Perhaps... either an individual effort or through a lawyer, someone can get GM to explain the low chassis dyno numbers or provide engine dyno sheets.

From the GM engineering press releases, the only changes to the LS6 itself are a new oil pan and moving the belts closer to the engine. So, any loss would presumeably be related to restricted intake and exhaust... which SHOULD have been identical to those used during dyno testing. Seeing that the suspension certainly wasn't the same as that used for testing, perhaps they did some late changes for intake/exhaust noise???

Anyone dyno a late 04 or 05 to determine whether the false oil temp reading caused the computer to adjust on the majority of 04s?

DG
 
#6 ·
Actually, in the case against Ford, it was established that a chassis dyno would be accepted. There is case law on this matter so if we, as a group, met and had our cars dyno'd at the same location, on the same day, the info would stand up in court. All that would be required is for the same procedure be followed for all tests. We could even invite GM to show with the car that they used for those numbers and see how it measured up against ours.:rant2:
 
#7 ·
5CTRVET said:
Actually, in the case against Ford, it was established that a chassis dyno would be accepted. There is case law on this matter so if we, as a group, met and had our cars dyno'd at the same location, on the same day, the info would stand up in court. All that would be required is for the same procedure be followed for all tests. We could even invite GM to show with the car that they used for those numbers and see how it measured up against ours.:rant2:
Btw what did Ford owners get with the lawsuit.
 
#8 ·
5CTRVET said:
Actually, in the case against Ford, it was established that a chassis dyno would be accepted. There is case law on this matter so if we, as a group, met and had our cars dyno'd at the same location, on the same day, the info would stand up in court. All that would be required is for the same procedure be followed for all tests. We could even invite GM to show with the car that they used for those numbers and see how it measured up against ours.:rant2:
Yes, but weren't the Cobra owners able to show that the car had the same dyno results as the previous car? And the only thing supposedly changed was an increase in HP? We don't have a control sample like that.... but we could average the transmission losses from similar vehicles (T56 tranny) and average the LS1 and LS6 results from other vehicles and assmeble a pretty good story...
 
#10 · (Edited)
With the RX8 issue, Mazda gathered a bunch of cars and not only dyno tested each one, but track tested to ascertain if the advertised performance was availalbe. The result was that horsepower was down, but they stood solid on their performance specs which were eventually met and exceeded by some owners as they got to know the car. The result was the buy back offer that many of us acted upon.

I suggest that the combination of chassis dyno's already run by owners (which IMHO indicate a 400hp engine), along with the FACT that the magazines and owners cannot achieve the performance claims, could be combined to make a case. The burden needs to be placed on GM, though I suppose a lawsuit would be unnecessary, to back up the claims. That is where issues that really matter to most of us - like wheel hop and oil temp alarms - will have to be dealt with. If GM can bring their test driver(s) to a location that we can bring our cars - and they can show us that the cars (chosen at random) do in fact perform to the numbers we expected - then no lawsuit necessary. I don't think the actual HP number is critical at this point - but the performance numbers are. The performance numbers if achieved (and I'm certaing they will achieve them) will certainly backup the advertised HP rating. Remember, there are already plenty of drag et's posted with trap speeds indicating a 400hp engine. This alone indicates that the HP is accurate. The wheel hop on the other hand, is more disturbing to me and for my vehicle, is certainly getting worse. Yes, I have done some clutch drops and I am familar with 1-2 powershifting techniques (who isn't). It has been there since day one (really, about day 6 when the car was finally broke in) but does seem to be getting steadily worse, since I can find it while powering out of corners now.

Just my thoughts. Some of you might want to read at www.rx8forum.com for more information on how the Mazda issue was handled (parent Ford didn't want another Cobra case on their hands). But really, let's drop the lawsuit pursuit.

Just my 1.998723647 cents.
 
#14 ·
If y'all get lawyers together I will give em my info after proceedings have started. If for whatever reason the lawsuit needs bodies in Jersey (doubt it) maybe I'll throw it in. I don't think the thing underperforms in terms of HP but the performance times, perhaps.I'd like to avoid my name on any lawsuits but if it gets me free suspension/driveline mods, maybe I will do it.
 
#15 ·
In most class action suits, the lawyers make millions in legal fees and the damaged parties get like a buck fifty. As a result, operating expenses for the car companies go up and therfore so do prices. You might get a used car for 38 K but you might not if GM stops making the cars if they feel that it is not worth the hassle. Courts get clogged with rich guys complaining about not enough performance in their performance cars, and real civil cases against negligent harmdoers get delayed.

Don't know the story of the Cobra. I'm a lawyer, I respect the legal system, and I beleive everyone is free to use it. That being said, I don't see anything here that makes a lawsuit the answer.

Doug
 
#16 ·
6104696 said:
In most class action suits, the lawyers make millions in legal fees and the damaged parties get like a buck fifty. As a result, operating expenses for the car companies go up and therfore so do prices. You might get a used car for 38 K but you might not if GM stops making the cars if they feel that it is not worth the hassle. Courts get clogged with rich guys complaining about not enough performance in their performance cars, and real civil cases against negligent harmdoers get delayed.

Don't know the story of the Cobra. I'm a lawyer, I respect the legal system, and I beleive everyone is free to use it. That being said, I don't see anything here that makes a lawsuit the answer.

Doug
Doug -

I agree full heartedly. I am not advocating a lawsuit in any of my posts - and hope none of you have read my opinion to be in favor of one. I am suggesting that written letter campaign, or the sort (email doesn't cut it), may make some headway in finding out if performance numbers without wheel hop can be achieved.

I would hate to see a lawsuit over this vehicle. The current "scandal" alone is damaging the reputation of one fine automobile. It certainly doesn't help that the wheel hop is stopping the magazines from backing up the performance claims.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Two very separate issues here... we should not mix them.

1) Not making 400hp: false advertising; false HP claims; etc... this could be a lawsuit
2) Oil temp & wheel hop: These are mechanical problems with the car, because it is the first year of production... dont think you can sue for these.

And you cant (shouldn't) sue for #1, just because you're upset about #2!

Oil Temp: mfg's take a LONG time fixing things, the fix has to be designed, built, lab tested, field tested, then tested some more, then put into production. It took ford 2 years to fix the Lightning intercooler leak... which leaked coolant into the cylinders and blew up engines... but they wouldn't release the fix until they were sure it worked. It took GM almost 1.5 years for fix the '01 Z06 oil comsumption issue. Getting the oil fix out anytime this year would be pretty darn fast for Caddy.

Wheel Hop: Caddy did answer our complaint... we' re just not happy with their answer... there is a difference. Fixing wheel hop obviously does something GM was not happy with... makes the ride too rough, NVH specs are too high for a Caddy... something. I think GM's going to let the aftermarket take car of this one.
 
#18 ·
Well put everyone. I agree that the idea seems frivolous to me and I would not want to do anything to cause them to abandon this car line, that's for damn sure. If my attorneys told me it might I would never sign a single piece of paper.

As for the HP, I still think you are all on heroin and that when broken in the car does 340-350rwhp range. The gearing and setup of the car could account for most #s being in the 320-330 range prior to break-in, or it could account for greater-than-Z06 drivetrain loss on the LS6 engine, but I am pretty positive they did not detune the LS6 for this car, they just restricted the hp in other ways. And as long as GM's assertion of 400hp at the CRANK is correct, we are assed out.

Incidentally, if Mallett is running a 435 he might have a stock LS6 out of his V sitting somewhere. Maybe ask him if he dyno'ed it on an engine dyno?
 
#19 ·
i don't see any good coming from a lawsuit. if you win, you'll get some money, but your car will perform the same. if you like the car, who cares. if you want more power, go buy aftermarket stuff from mallet or someone else. we're only talking a difference of maybe 30 hp at most. you're not going to feel that 99% of the time you own your car. if it was advertising 125 and getting 75, that'd be different. but until it's engine dyno'ed, i'd say don't worry about it and keep enjoying your car.
 
#20 ·
From my butt-o-meter, my V makes 400 hp. Is it 404 or 392 or 389? who knows to that level but it definitely right up there around 400. I just recently sold my Z28 T-56 with 3.73 gearing just like the V and that put 321 hp to the rear wheels and I have a Silverado SS that puts 332 hp to the wheels. The V pulls a ton stronger than either of those. Maybe I got a ringer! :coolgleam
 
#21 ·
StealthV said:
From my butt-o-meter, my V makes 400 hp. Is it 404 or 392 or 389? who knows to that level but it definitely right up there around 400. I just recently sold my Z28 T-56 with 3.73 gearing just like the V and that put 321 hp to the rear wheels and I have a Silverado SS that puts 332 hp to the wheels. The V pulls a ton stronger than either of those. Maybe I got a ringer! :coolgleam
Maybe your butt-O-meter is specifically tuned for the V.



Dgtal
 
#23 ·
Guys,
If you decide to bring this lawsuit, you are just going to devalue our cars and make GM not want to play in this market again.

I might agree that some numbers that people have been getting on the dynos are low, but there are alot of factors here (air flow, temp, altitude, driveline, etc) which can be the cause of these lower numbers.

The best result you can hope for in a lawsuit is GM forced to buy back the car... What do you think they are going to do, tune everyone's motor and then dyno it to make sure itacheives what you consider to be a reasonable horsepower level (remember they advertise at the crank). It aint going to happen. I am happy with this car if the number is 323 or 335 hp... It still fast and still a great car and I dont want to give it up. I especially dont want it devalued because some folks acheived a low number on a chaisis dyno (with or without a fan) than they expected. If you dont like the car then sell it.

I am keeping mine.

On the reflash and wheelhop issue: The refalsh will be here, we just need to be patient.. Its a flaw they accept and they are going to fix it. We all know the car has wheelhop (I experienced it in a race this morning). GM will gladly put a solid rear in your car for those 1/4 mile launches... I prefer to handle better... The aftermarket WILL give us a solution, but its then your choice to take whatever symptoms come along with that (rougher ride, worse handling, etc). GM made a decision to appeal to most people they thought would be driving this car. They would have fixed it to begin with (if only to avoid this bad press) unless there was something comprimised by repairing it (i.e worse handling, part failure, etc). BTW: you probably knew about wheelhop before buying the car (if you did any research on the car) and still chose to buy. I did and will live with it until someone comes up with a real solution.

Things I am more concerned about are driveline clunk. Thats a real issue.

Sorry for my rant...

Reed
http://www.cadillacfaq.com
 
#24 ·
mrbadss said:
Guys,
If you decide to bring this lawsuit, you are just going to devalue our cars and make GM not want to play in this market again.

I might agree that some numbers that people have been getting on the dynos are low, but there are alot of factors here (air flow, temp, altitude, driveline, etc) which can be the cause of these lower numbers.

The best result you can hope for in a lawsuit is GM forced to buy back the car... What do you think they are going to do, tune everyone's motor and then dyno it to make sure itacheives what you consider to be a reasonable horsepower level (remember they advertise at the crank). It aint going to happen. I am happy with this car if the number is 323 or 335 hp... It still fast and still a great car and I dont want to give it up. I especially dont want it devalued because some folks acheived a low number on a chaisis dyno (with or without a fan) than they expected. If you dont like the car then sell it.

I am keeping mine.

On the reflash and wheelhop issue: The refalsh will be here, we just need to be patient.. Its a flaw they accept and they are going to fix it. We all know the car has wheelhop (I experienced it in a race this morning). GM will gladly put a solid rear in your car for those 1/4 mile launches... I prefer to handle better... The aftermarket WILL give us a solution, but its then your choice to take whatever symptoms come along with that (rougher ride, worse handling, etc). GM made a decision to appeal to most people they thought would be driving this car. They would have fixed it to begin with (if only to avoid this bad press) unless there was something comprimised by repairing it (i.e worse handling, part failure, etc). BTW: you probably knew about wheelhop before buying the car (if you did any research on the car) and still chose to buy. I did and will live with it until someone comes up with a real solution.

Things I am more concerned about are driveline clunk. Thats a real issue.

Sorry for my rant...

Reed
http://www.cadillacfaq.com
couldn't have said it better. cadillac will make the 'real' problems go away. if you're not happy with your car, you can always sell it. 10-15 hp shouldn't be a reason to sell it, but if it is, then by all means, sell it. you won't have a a tough time finding a buyer. GM is not going to be able to make a car that everyone likes. if they would have fixed the wheel hop people would complain it doesn't handle right. maybe someday both will be achieved. but for a first year car, i think they did pretty well so far.
 
#25 ·
mrbadss said:
Guys,
If you decide to bring this lawsuit, you are just going to devalue our cars and make GM not want to play in this market again.

I might agree that some numbers that people have been getting on the dynos are low, but there are alot of factors here (air flow, temp, altitude, driveline, etc) which can be the cause of these lower numbers.

The best result you can hope for in a lawsuit is GM forced to buy back the car... What do you think they are going to do, tune everyone's motor and then dyno it to make sure itacheives what you consider to be a reasonable horsepower level (remember they advertise at the crank). It aint going to happen. I am happy with this car if the number is 323 or 335 hp... It still fast and still a great car and I dont want to give it up. I especially dont want it devalued because some folks acheived a low number on a chaisis dyno (with or without a fan) than they expected. If you dont like the car then sell it.

I am keeping mine.

On the reflash and wheelhop issue: The refalsh will be here, we just need to be patient.. Its a flaw they accept and they are going to fix it. We all know the car has wheelhop (I experienced it in a race this morning). GM will gladly put a solid rear in your car for those 1/4 mile launches... I prefer to handle better... The aftermarket WILL give us a solution, but its then your choice to take whatever symptoms come along with that (rougher ride, worse handling, etc). GM made a decision to appeal to most people they thought would be driving this car. They would have fixed it to begin with (if only to avoid this bad press) unless there was something comprimised by repairing it (i.e worse handling, part failure, etc). BTW: you probably knew about wheelhop before buying the car (if you did any research on the car) and still chose to buy. I did and will live with it until someone comes up with a real solution.
Sorry for my rant...

Reed
http://www.cadillacfaq.com
:yeah:
 
#26 ·
i guess the question is what do you want out of a lawsuit?? if you want your cars to gain performance, it's not going to happen. cadillac isn't going to change every car to meet the preferred numbers. if you want money, you might get 50 bucks, but other than that, the lawyers will get the money.
 
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