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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, Class Action Law Suit Against G.m. in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Intake airflow is not the problem on the dyno, it is heat soak from sitting there under high loads with ...
  1. #106
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Intake airflow is not the problem on the dyno, it is heat soak from sitting there under high loads with no normal 60+ mph air flow through the engine compartment.

    Things that really suck down the rear wheel horsepower of the V compared to the Z06/GTO, etc. is the GIANT Brembo brakes, a much larger propshaft, heavier wheels, etc. Of course the other cars are going to dyno more becuase of less rotating inertia. Duh.

    How many of you came from 200 hp Camrys and other crap like that and now are complaining about the horsepower? Give me a break.

    If you don't believe your V makes the power, pull the engine out and dyno it out of the car. It is the only true way to test the power. Prove to us it is underrated.

    :deadhorse

  2. #107
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthV
    Intake airflow is not the problem on the dyno, it is heat soak from sitting there under high loads with no normal 60+ mph air flow through the engine compartment.

    Things that really suck down the rear wheel horsepower of the V compared to the Z06/GTO, etc. is the GIANT Brembo brakes, a much larger propshaft, heavier wheels, etc. Of course the other cars are going to dyno more becuase of less rotating inertia. Duh.

    How many of you came from 200 hp Camrys and other crap like that and now are complaining about the horsepower? Give me a break.

    If you don't believe your V makes the power, pull the engine out and dyno it out of the car. It is the only true way to test the power. Prove to us it is underrated.

    :deadhorse

    BZZZZZZ wrong, the burden of proof is on you to prove that a 320 RWHP car is a 400 Crank HP car. Quote Dinan all you want but no other LSx platform car has this issue.

  3. #108
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildwhl
    Shinkaze -

    I guess for me it comes down to asking myself if I care whether I can achieve the advertised number on a dyno (problematic and unrepeatable) or at the track (whether it be 1/4 mile or road course). I care more about the latter, as this is a true indication of vehicle performance regardless of the "technical specifications" advertised by the manufacturer. Ever pay attention to the advertised weights of street/dirt bikes by the manufacturers (no air in tires, no fluids, bathroom scale on the moon, etc)?
    You're right the Dyno is a diagnostic tool, if it's showing the car has a tendency to dyno low, you have tuning issue that needs to be recognized, and diagnosed.
    I have to say that the posted time slips in the 13.3 range and every HP calc. I've used says that we're at or about 400 hp depending on which calc., what weight is entered, etc. If you enter 4,000 lbs for the weight you'll get something like 397 crank hp for a 13.3 et. Increase the weight and the hp increases respectively to achieve the already proven et. Use 4150 lbs like some like to and enter 13.3 you'll get well over 400 hp. Use a trap speed calculator and the numbers are even better.
    The Drag strip is much less controlled than a dyno, and traction too often becomes the difference. FWIW though I haven't seen any posted Qtr Mile times on this board, but Motor Trend's 13.48@105.3 would indicate as much as 370, while Road And Tracks Number would show as high as 414hp. Qtr mile estimates are just that, estimates, and vague ones at that. I've got thousands of Qtr Miles runs under my belt and in one night my times can range as much as .5 seconds and 4-5 mph. That would be 50hp swings in estimated power. Conversely I have dozens of dynos under my belt on my personal car and have witnessed hundreds more. My own dynos are rarely more than 3-5 RWHP off each other.
    There is a recently posted video of Jesus and his Mercedes hauling ass drag racing. I guess the horsepower question comes down to just that - did you buy the car for drag racing? I didn't. Hell, after watching those videos if I wanted a street drag car you can't argue with that AMG Mercedes at all (no wheel hop =torque management?)...but that isn't what I wanted and I'd bet that on any of my favorite twisties the V would win - we could even swap drivers back and forth and I still bet the V would be the preferred and faster car on those roads where the adrenalin really gets pumping.
    Now this is the logic that escapes me. GM advertises a 6-speed manual, there is a 6th gear shown on the shifter, would you feel so generous if you suddenly discovered they put a T-5 5-speed in your car? I'm not sure why you're okay with getting less than you paid for?
    So, to each of you, what sold you on the car? The advertised numbers certainly interested you in the beginning, but what sells you in the end is the driving experience, and, hate to say it again, the butt-dyno reigns supreme here. Few of us will rarely get to the track to test the numbers out. All of us have the opportunities on the street to test our car and ability against the competition from time to time. But myself, it is the fact that the car is seriously FAST, easily and AFFORDABLE to modify, sublime HANDLING, great LOOKS, superior VALUE...and the list goes on.
    Obviously you have not read a word I typed, for the 100th time I said the car is not underpowered, but at 320RWHP it is underrated.
    I don't argue that the dyno numbers may be disappointing. I will simply state that this dead horse subject just keeps beating up the reputation and value of the vehicles that we already own - even though there is simply no doubt in my mind that the car makes the advertised hp numbers. From a business standpoint, GM did the least possible to get the engine in the car. We know the engine is the same as the Z06 but packaged differently. We know how awesome the entire package is and it has long been proven to make the advertised power, if not more.

    Finally, we KNOW that chassis dynos are tools to help you tune a vehicle. They are invaluable tools for this I'm sure. What they are terrible at is giving accurate comparisions vehicle to vehicle, dyno to dyno, day to day.

    So what if the GTO is actually UNDERATED and really making 370 hp or so (ever consider that?). Makes the GTO a good value for a drag car if you like it. To me it in no way affects the V. We're just not apples to apples here. Why the power discrepency on the dynos? We can speculate forever. The only answer will have to come from either GM or a tuner that really knows their stuff and can explain the realities of what the PCM does or does not do based on conditions at the time of the dyno. This is all to similar to the RX8 timeline and experience, where everybody loved the car until a number was off. To date, you still cannot accurately chassis dyno an RX8. It did not change my opinion of that car when I owned it, and this issue does not change my opinion of the V now. In fact, if I find one for a sweet deal in the next year or so, I'm buying another RX8 just to have and beat on...even if they lower the hp rating to 10 hp!

    I bet my sorely shredded F1 tires believe there is 400 hp and more Simply put, you cannot make the 1/4 mile times without the hp advertised. They're happening and so are every single one of those ponies with maybe a couple we didn't even expect to have
    Well one fact for sure is, if you ignore the problem then you'll never have to wait for a solution to arise. However, how silly would you feel after this rant it was discovered some simple fix was missing that takes ten seconds to cure...loose wire, blown fuse, whatever, and then poof! There is your missing 20-30RWHP? Guess what, the missing power won't be discovered if the problem is swept under the rug while we all play emperor's new clothes to the issue.

    FWIW I wouldn't put too much faith on tuners "discovering the problem". 99% of all power tricks and knowledge comes from the hobbiest, the tuners just package it up and resell it to those that don't want to get their hands dirty. Not to mention Mallett may be the most stand up guy around but if uncovers a "missing 30 RWHP", as a tuner it's better business for him to "fix" this issue on a customer car by customer car basis.

  4. #109
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.


  5. #110
    globed70 is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.



    Being that there isn't much debate that the engine is an LS6, then either:

    1. The intake/exhaust combo is more restrictive than GM anticipated. Assuming for the minute that the exhaust manifold isn't more restrictive than the Z06, then some chassis dynos after intake AND exhaust work should indicate if they really are eating up 20hp (possible).

    2. Inefficiencies in the driveline, although I'm having trouble believing 20hp (IMHO).

    3. There are little green men in the car that want to frustrate us.

    4. There has been no indication that GM changed the program on this LS6, but who knows.

    Who should know? Other than GMPD, the folks over at Mallett MUST KNOW and those that advertise themselves as tuners SHOULD KNOW.

  6. #111
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Ok kids, listen up. Class is in session.

    Quote from More Performance on LS1tech.com

    "The last bone stock Z06 we dyno'ed made 339RWHP. It had no performance modifications at the time of the dyno."

    Speaking about their CTS-V, MP continues...

    "Our test mule was made 412FWHP. We estimate a 17% loss on our Caddy (Which dyno'd at 324RWHP). You multipy the 400FWHP (That caddy says you have) X17% and subtract that gives you 332RWHP. You also have to account for the horrible exhaust and headers and the numbers you see are very close to accurate. There is no accurate % for what you should go by. The only sure fire way is to pull an engine, engine dyno it, reinstall it and chassis dyno it for accurate readings. I think this is a waste of everyone's time since there is no sure fire way of telling what the % rate should be. What we have found is close to what GM specs are."

    The V is not underrated. OK? I'm done, you guys can continue to bicker like kindergarten kids about a subject that is just as worthwhile to discuss as the torque curve of a Yugo.



    Here's the MP dyno thread ---> LS1Tech Dyno Thread

  7. #112
    globed70 is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.



    I bit of healthy conversation amongst interested owners is not exactly bickering. No one said the V isn't powerful or a great car... the only debate was why it seemed to dyno a bit lower than expected by owners. Specifically, why for instance a Z06 with 5hp additional quoted HP on AVERAGE tends to dyno quite a bit more. Simple as that.

    So calm down there tough guy :drinker

  8. #113
    Devil_concours is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    i stopped by a local dyno shop today and asked bunch questions about their dyno and they gave me a down to earth answer and told me that there is 25%~30% difference between their result and advertised rating

  9. #114
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Shinkaze -

    Thanks for the responses...I knew you'd take the bait!
    (Just kidding)
    I'm not saying I disagree with your thoughts entirely, only that I'm quite certain the power exists, at least in my V. I have nothing to verify this other than my own experiences. It is quite possible that some cars are significantly off the mark and that would be disturbing should we find out that it were true. I believe the drivetrain is less efficient than the Z06, heavier wheels, etc.

    What I'm really saying is that, at least to me, the headline of this thread is a waste of time and energy. I don't think a lawsuit is in order, as many have mentioned that no one has proven anything either way yet. I only argue that those that have been to the track are able to hit numbers that in my estimation requires 400 hp.

    Hell, I could be wrong, and my V might be 50 hp off from the mark. Would I want it fixed if a fix were offered? Probably, but I'm not going to have any sleepless night over it in the meantime. Logic simply tells me the motor is intensively the same as the Z06 LS6 and hence one of the reasons I bought the car in the first place = great aftermarket tuning. I wasn't after a 400 hp 4 door luxury sports sedan when I bought it. My goals, like many others on this board, are somewhat higher and will require modifying much of what the factory supplied anyway - so to me - it really doesn't matter.

    By the way, it seems that my V doesn't have a 6 speed afterall. It is funny you should mention it. Mine seems to have only one speed...








    Real Damn Fast!

    So, Shinkaze my friend, how do you suggest we resolve this issue so that we can all make sure each and every V is really a 400 hp automobile? I'm not sure there is a way but am open to your thoughts and suggestions. Right now I need to make some tire decisions before I wear the tread markers off!

  10. #115
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinkaze
    You're right the Dyno is a diagnostic tool, if it's showing the car has a tendency to dyno low, you have tuning issue that needs to be recognized, and diagnosed.

    The Drag strip is much less controlled than a dyno, and traction too often becomes the difference. FWIW though I haven't seen any posted Qtr Mile times on this board, but Motor Trend's 13.48@105.3 would indicate as much as 370, while Road And Tracks Number would show as high as 414hp. Qtr mile estimates are just that, estimates, and vague ones at that. I've got thousands of Qtr Miles runs under my belt and in one night my times can range as much as .5 seconds and 4-5 mph. That would be 50hp swings in estimated power. Conversely I have dozens of dynos under my belt on my personal car and have witnessed hundreds more. My own dynos are rarely more than 3-5 RWHP off each other.
    I guess my dyno vs. track comment is vague. Let me put it another way. I can go to a dyno (if we had a local one!) and you could go in your town, probably with the same car, much less your car vs. mine, and we'll see different results. Same goes for 1/4 mile times at different tracks/times. What I was saying about being repeatable at the track is that there is more than one posted time across the net and in the mags that verifies a 400 hp automobile, though I agree that the range of the dynos is strange. At least if I see another V at the strip and we run similar times, and hopefully good ones at that, we'll know something about those two autos. I'll probably take her to Top Gun this fall to find out (and I have now noticed two other V's here so maybe one will show up?). My dyno experience is limited to motorcycles and we generally used it much less for absolute numbers but more for measuring gain or loss due to performance (or so-called performance) modifications. I know many people dyno repeatedly at the same location and get similar if not the same numbers day to day. I also know that I have dynoed on the same model/type machine at nearly the same altitude at two different shops, temps in the mid 70's and similar humidity to see a whopping 18% difference on a bike that had simply been riden from one place to the next! That's where my mistrust in dyno tests comes from I suppose...but hey, we are in fact beating a dead horse and I'm going to stop now.

    Should you find the solution I'm sure you'll post it here and we will all appreciate your efforts. Me, I'm going to drive the piss out of her and then call Cal and build a 427 along side his efforts so we can see how our two v's come out (on a dyno, of course!)...or if that lottery thingy hits, maybe I'll ship the car out to Chuck and let him see if there isn't a place for 7.0L 700hp something under the hood (bye, bye differential!).

    I'm sure the LS6, tired or not, will find a home in something else that I come by if necessary!

  11. #116
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildwhl
    What I'm really saying is that, at least to me, the headline of this thread is a waste of time and energy.
    I'm not a very legally bent person so I'm not really advocating any legal issue. I am advocating empirical research needs to be done to identify what may or may not be causing the lower than expected dynos. It would be easier for Cadillac to do this for us. Sadly I doubt they would have much reason to go through the effort unless there was a similar legal pressure to investigate the issue as there was for Ford when the Cobras and RX8's dynoed low. That said If the CTS-V community chooses to go it alone, then its up to us to research the issue and uncover what may be the cause. Earlier it was listed int his thread that an overly-sensitive oil temperature sensor could be the gremlin, and I am anxious to see if this gets investigated further.
    I don't think a lawsuit is in order, as many have mentioned that no one has proven anything either way yet. I only argue that those that have been to the track are able to hit numbers that in my estimation requires 400 hp.
    I've only seen G-Tech times posted on this board which I wouldn't be willing to draw conclusions either way from. The Magazine tests I've seen again show a range from underrating (Motor Trend) to overrating (Road and Track). ET is a bad number to estimate power from as it's more drawn from traction and gearing than actual power. I know of more than a few under 300hp Mustangs that pull 12s in the Qtr mile on slicks and gearing alone. MPH is a better indicator but even that shows a wide variance. So far the only empirical test of power has been actual dynos which again show on average low and some show what they should be, the question then becomes why do those "factory freaks" dyno higher than average. Is it weather, testing conditions, etc? Or is there some mechanical issue like the oil temp sensors isn't as fickle? The first step is for to recognize the issue so we can identify and diagnose what is occurring.

    Hell, I could be wrong, and my V might be 50 hp off from the mark. Would I want it fixed if a fix were offered? Probably, but I'm not going to have any sleepless night over it in the meantime. Logic simply tells me the motor is intensively the same as the Z06 LS6 and hence one of the reasons I bought the car in the first place = great aftermarket tuning. I wasn't after a 400 hp 4 door luxury sports sedan when I bought it. My goals, like many others on this board, are somewhat higher and will require modifying much of what the factory supplied anyway - so to me - it really doesn't matter.
    Before the CTS-V was launched I would have never considered a Cadillac, and was only looking at German cars to replace my TA. What attracts me to the CTS-V is the LS6 is a known quantity to me and I know how to get cheap reliable power out of it, so you can expect me to be right there with you if I end up getting the V.
    So, Shinkaze my friend, how do you suggest we resolve this issue so that we can all make sure each and every V is really a 400 hp automobile? I'm not sure there is a way but am open to your thoughts and suggestions. Right now I need to make some tire decisions before I wear the tread markers off!
    I agree a discussion is irrelevant with no call to action.

    1.) The issue needs to be acknowledged
    2.) The problem needs to be diagnosed and tested.

    I think the first step is to put a V back on a dyno and get a full Autotap reading and maybe even a wideband O2 reading to see what's occurring. At the very least it could rule out which timing table the V wants to dyno on, and we can detect what would be forcing the V to run in that state of tune. If the diagnostics come back 100% as no issue, then the question needs to be put on the Vs that are blowing the average, what is different about their runs and state of tune. Who knows, maybe GM did a mid year update, it wouldn't be the first time.

    -Adam

  12. #117
    Devil_concours is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    here are few things to consider
    1. Cadillac did not advertise cts-v to be a certain hp at the wheel instead 400hp at the crank
    2. CTS-v is a 4000lb car which is quite heavy

  13. #118
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil_concours
    here are few things to consider
    1. Cadillac did not advertise cts-v to be a certain hp at the wheel instead 400hp at the crank
    2. CTS-v is a 4000lb car which is quite heavy
    1.) And Ford/Mazda advertise crank HP as well, and the owners of the RX8 and Cobra succesfully got Ford/Mazda to recognize the cars were underrated based on RWHP chassis dynos. Ford fixed the Cobra, and gave the RX8 owners substantual refunds.
    2.) The Curb weight of a vehicle has no affect on RWHP.

  14. #119
    Devil_concours is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinkaze
    1.) And Ford/Mazda advertise crank HP as well, and the owners of the RX8 and Cobra succesfully got Ford/Mazda to recognize the cars were underrated based on RWHP chassis dynos. Ford fixed the Cobra, and gave the RX8 owners substantual refunds.
    2.) The Curb weight of a vehicle has no affect on RWHP.
    1)ford didn't volunteer and fix the problem. Mazda has a history of overrating their car so it was probably smart for them to act fast
    2)I'm just answering the accusation that cts-v doesn't run times like other 400hp car.

  15. #120
    lasstss's Avatar
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Guys, try this. Its right on the money.
    http://www.corral.net/tech/

    The HP matches my dyno runs on previous cars. I would say we are 20 horses short.

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