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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, Class Action Law Suit Against G.m. in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; I have been thinking about buying a V for a couple of months and have held off based on all ...
  1. #91
    WannaV is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    I have been thinking about buying a V for a couple of months and have held off based on all of the problems that I have read about with the car on this website. I find it interesting that most visited posts are this one and the wheel hop post. It makes me wonder who tests these cars before they sell them to the public. I don't want to spend $50K on a car that can't achieve what the manufacter claims.

    Have you guys tried a letter campaign to Detroit? It might help if you got one of the major car magazines to check it out......Motor Trend, Car&Driver, etc. Surely somebody has some connections. I first heard about the Cobra issue in Motor Trend.

    Good luck. Still on the fence for now.

  2. #92
    Dreamin is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    it is HARD to find a 100% bone stock Corvette that would pay to go on a Dyno.
    Very true... this was my buddy's "before" run... the mod's go in next week... and then he'll do an "after" run. (So cant now do a back-to-back dyno with his and my car... and my Z06 is no longer stock )

  3. #93
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    miscreant is offline GM Connection
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by WannaV
    I don't want to spend $50K on a car that can't achieve what the manufacter claims.
    I guess that was my point in the post above. I can't find many cars that attain manufacturer claims in the books/mags, because manufacturer claims are the extremes (as evident above in the Z06 run). I can list car after car that does not live up to it's manufacturer claims unless you really run it hard, and I think someone on this board posted a 4.7 or 4.8 run, but with some heafty clutch feathering.

    HP claims, one thing. But that still has not been adressed to the level where we can make accurate judgements. Anyone do a flywheel yet?
    2004 Cadillac CTS (**SOLD** ): http://www.ctsowners.com
    2004 Pontiac GTO: http://www.myyellowgto.com

  4. #94
    Dreamin is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    WannaV: I started the other big thread on the HP issue (Why the PATHETIC rwhp?)... that was before I owned the car. At that time, I (and Adam) were very surprised at the reaction from the owners... *for the most part* it didn't seem to bother them! And read the 'problem' threads... reactions from the owners taking their cars in for diff leaks, broken diff's, etc... again, for the most part... taking it very well. Til the day I bought my car i did not understand this one bit.

    After owning the car... i will say this: the car is so over the top enoyable... so insanely fun to drive... drive it easy, drive it hard, or drive the snot out of it... it's an unbeliveable car.

    It is more rewarding to drive then the M5 (friend has one, drive it all the time), S4 (lots of test drives), M3 (couple friends own these), the list goes on, and even my Z06... (yes, the V is slower, but the overall driving experience is more rewarding).

    So what i am saying is: I have no problems forgiving it's couple-of-horsepower shortfall (if there really is one), and it's few 1st year production issues.

  5. #95
    StealthV's Avatar
    StealthV is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    The wheel hop is a real issue. With traction control off and one dumps the clutch from a high rpm, the hop will happen. From my perspective, it is not a big deal unless you want to take the V drag racing.

    Now this whole thing about the V engine not making its 400 horsepower is a big giant bunch of crap. Yes, the average driver will never be able to hit GM's claimed 0-60 time of 4.6 seconds or 1/4 mile times due to lack of skill, finese, practice, etc. One member of the forum here did get down to a 4.7 second 0-60 run with many, many practice launches and I believe ClintonMills has run at least a 13.2 second quarter mile. (You out there Clinton to confirm?)

    Remember the thread we had a while back about top speed? During the past months, I've been continuing to work on refining the numbers. Look for a set of nice graphs, etc. in the coming weeks but since this horsepower subject has resurfaced, I'll share an overview of the numbers I've got to date.

    Assumptions:
    Drag Coefficient = 0.354
    Cross Sectional Area = 24.3 sq. ft.
    Weight with driver & fuel = 4150 lb.
    Weight distribution on rear axle = 45.6%
    Center of gravity = 15.0 in.
    Wheelbase = 115.2 in.

    The following calculations were done assuming factory published power numbers, launching at 2000 rpm, slipping the clutch until the tires hooked up, no wheel hop and a 6400 rpm shift point.

    Zero to Terminal Velocity Speed Run
    ------------------------------
    60' time = 2.31 seconds @ 34 mph
    60 mph = 4.59 seconds
    1/8 mile = 8.65 seconds @ 87 mph
    100 mph = 11.34 seconds
    1/4 mile = 13.23 seconds @ 108 mph
    162.11 mph = 39.00 seconds (terminal velocity in 5th gear)
    164.23 mph = 93.45 seconds (terminal velocity in 6th gear)

    The calculations have confirmed GM's numbers very closely. The difference between their numbers and our track/G-tech numbers is wheel hop and the loose nuts behind the wheel.

    IMHO, all this "lack of power" discussion is doing is accelerating the depreciation of our wonderful cars.


  6. #96
    Dreamin is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Drag Coefficient is 0.354

  7. #97
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by miscreant
    RESURECTION Time

    The other day I picked up an old car mag and started reading through it. I came upon an add, and just happened to read it. It was a Chevy 2001 Z06 add. 0-60 claimed? 4 second flat. However, in the SAME magazine they pit the Z06 against the C5-R (I think) and rate the tested 0-60 as 4.6s. I did a search on Road and TRack and Motor Trend. Seems the 2001 Z06 was testing at about 4.5-4.7s.

    Let's add the Z06 to the class action lawsuit...

    Also, let's add the Audi A4. Audi claims 0-60 for the 3.0L as 7s, but the best I can find in the mags is 7.7s (that just happens to be one that was together in the magazine as well). I bet you'd find some serious discrepancies between most manufacture claims (which is BEST times) and most mag tested times (which is AVERAGE times)...

    Done. It can die again.
    Miscreant,
    My Concern has nothing to do with drag launches and 0-60 times, rather a generally low dyno result that would imply the CTS-V is more likely a 360-370 hp car. That by no means is Underpowered but it is below the advertised rating. Whats even more conern is there are a couple of cars that appear to be making 340hp, which is more indicitve of a 400 hp car. So that begs the question, what is different and how can the other CTS-Vs make sure their cars recover the 20-30 hp?

    FWIW I'm still on the fence with the CTS-V bad after some serious car shopping last week its back on the top of the list. So far it seams to tbe the most affordable blend of comfort and performance. At this point though I think I will get my car in October, so hopefully I can try on the new LS2 GTO....sadly the worthless trunk and lower-par interior of the GTO have put it behind the CTS-V for me. My "front runners" right now are (in order)

    545 Sport with the new M5 Fascia
    At the same price I would probably get the 545 over the CTS-V, in day to day driving I'm finding its 90% as good as the E39 M5, it just lacks that extra 10% that makes you absolutly adore th car.

    2005 CTS-V
    I'm not totally in love with the interior, I do love all the gadgets and gizmos and with my GM discount it's price very well.

    M3
    Loved this car for a long time, but it's lack of practicality and more dated interior has moved it to the back of the pack

    2005 C55
    Holding off judegment until I drive one, the C32 is fun, but small.

    2005 S4
    B*O*R*I*N*G exterior, very nice interior, but the center console rubs my thigh...not crazy about that.

    Anyhow I've strayed off topic mainly because I feel what I need to say on this topic has been said, despite it's short commings and problems it still is high on the list, but we'll see how things change as I get closer to purchase.

    -Adam

  8. #98
    Midlife Z06 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Turn off the traction control, find a clear road, then stomp on it in first or second from a roll. As you start smiling look in the rear view to see the rubber left on the road. Feels like 400 hp to me

  9. #99
    StealthV's Avatar
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    As someone who has a Camaro that puts over 320 hp to the rear wheels (the same ballpark as most V's I've seen dyno'd), I can personally assure you the V makes every single one (or more) of its 400 horsepower. My theory why the dyno pulls are so low on the V is simply a matter of the engine not getting enough air sitting on the dyno, running hot and pulling timing.

    If I remember right, Dinan, of BMW tuning fame, explained that over 70 hp can be "found" by properly blowing air over the engine compartment. Thus, the dyno pulls for the V don't mean squat on the true power put down on the street.

    There is a night and day difference between how my V and Camaro pull in the same gears. The V feels like it has 100 more horsepower than the Camaro, yet it weighs hundreds of pounds more. Between both cars, they have the same transmission, same rear axle ratios, about an apple to apple comparison as one can get with the buttometer.

    Come to my house, you drive the Camaro, I get the V and I guarantee you will see nothing but taillights. The V hooks up and launches harder than I ever can in the Camaro and the Camaro has got the factory SS 275/45-17 Eagle F1 Supercar tires on it which are quite a bit wider than the stock V rubber.

    How can naysayers explain the reality of my V walking on the Camaro if the V is under powered and makes no more power than my Camaro? By making the same power and weighing 400 pounds more, the V should get spanked by the Camaro but it doesn't. You know why? Because the V does make the power.

    But then again, as I've said in the past, maybe my V is one of those factory "ringer" cars like the media gets.

    THE V MAKES 400 HORSEPOWER!

    :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:

  10. #100
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    LOL stealth

  11. #101
    GNSCOTT is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Every HP calculator I have used, based on the track #'s above and 4100#'s (car and driver) show right around 400hp.

  12. #102
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by GNSCOTT
    Every HP calculator I have used, based on the track #'s above and 4100#'s (car and driver) show right around 400hp.
    And yet the dynos don't back that up. I understand that the fans might not give the car extra air flow or that the "feel" of the car might show it's not underpowered, but the fact of the matter is on a dyno it isn't making 400 hp (on average). I understand the resistance to face this fact based on the love and feel of the car, but another fact of the matter is other CTS-V cousins do not show this problem including "bottom breathers" like the Trans Am and Corvette that would be more obviously affected by air flow problems on a dyno. If the dyno study that Dinan did affected all cars equally then the low dynos would be a pandemic situation affecting all or most LSx platform cars. Which it does not, the only pandemic observation is that the CTS-V dynos low which would indicate the car is not making claimed power. IF the car is making the power on the street and not making the power on the dyno then the obvious conclusion is some sort of over-sensitive condition that rears its head on the dyno. While I do believe Dinan has researched their observations on cars they modify (BMW cars), cars that we modify are showing no where near the 70HP sensitivity range Dinan does, rather only the CTS-V platform is showing abnormality.

    So the question remains, on a dyno why does this car on average not make its advertised power? If the car is oversensitive, what happens under high stress situations? The Dyno is hardly high stress compared to an actual drag race, and especially in hot weather conditions.

  13. #103
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Shinkaze -

    I guess for me it comes down to asking myself if I care whether I can achieve the advertised number on a dyno (problematic and unrepeatable) or at the track (whether it be 1/4 mile or road course). I care more about the latter, as this is a true indication of vehicle performance regardless of the "technical specifications" advertised by the manufacturer. Ever pay attention to the advertised weights of street/dirt bikes by the manufacturers (no air in tires, no fluids, bathroom scale on the moon, etc)?

    I have to say that the posted time slips in the 13.3 range and every HP calc. I've used says that we're at or about 400 hp depending on which calc., what weight is entered, etc. If you enter 4,000 lbs for the weight you'll get something like 397 crank hp for a 13.3 et. Increase the weight and the hp increases respectively to achieve the already proven et. Use 4150 lbs like some like to and enter 13.3 you'll get well over 400 hp. Use a trap speed calculator and the numbers are even better.

    There is a recently posted video of Jesus and his Mercedes hauling ass drag racing. I guess the horsepower question comes down to just that - did you buy the car for drag racing? I didn't. Hell, after watching those videos if I wanted a street drag car you can't argue with that AMG Mercedes at all (no wheel hop =torque management?)...but that isn't what I wanted and I'd bet that on any of my favorite twisties the V would win - we could even swap drivers back and forth and I still bet the V would be the preferred and faster car on those roads where the adrenalin really gets pumping.

    So, to each of you, what sold you on the car? The advertised numbers certainly interested you in the beginning, but what sells you in the end is the driving experience, and, hate to say it again, the butt-dyno reigns supreme here. Few of us will rarely get to the track to test the numbers out. All of us have the opportunities on the street to test our car and ability against the competition from time to time. But myself, it is the fact that the car is seriously FAST, easily and AFFORDABLE to modify, sublime HANDLING, great LOOKS, superior VALUE...and the list goes on.

    I don't argue that the dyno numbers may be disappointing. I will simply state that this dead horse subject just keeps beating up the reputation and value of the vehicles that we already own - even though there is simply no doubt in my mind that the car makes the advertised hp numbers. From a business standpoint, GM did the least possible to get the engine in the car. We know the engine is the same as the Z06 but packaged differently. We know how awesome the entire package is and it has long been proven to make the advertised power, if not more.

    Finally, we KNOW that chassis dynos are tools to help you tune a vehicle. They are invaluable tools for this I'm sure. What they are terrible at is giving accurate comparisions vehicle to vehicle, dyno to dyno, day to day.

    So what if the GTO is actually UNDERATED and really making 370 hp or so (ever consider that?). Makes the GTO a good value for a drag car if you like it. To me it in no way affects the V. We're just not apples to apples here. Why the power discrepency on the dynos? We can speculate forever. The only answer will have to come from either GM or a tuner that really knows their stuff and can explain the realities of what the PCM does or does not do based on conditions at the time of the dyno. This is all to similar to the RX8 timeline and experience, where everybody loved the car until a number was off. To date, you still cannot accurately chassis dyno an RX8. It did not change my opinion of that car when I owned it, and this issue does not change my opinion of the V now. In fact, if I find one for a sweet deal in the next year or so, I'm buying another RX8 just to have and beat on...even if they lower the hp rating to 10 hp!

    I bet my sorely shredded F1 tires believe there is 400 hp and more Simply put, you cannot make the 1/4 mile times without the hp advertised. They're happening and so are every single one of those ponies with maybe a couple we didn't even expect to have

  14. #104
    Devil_concours is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinkaze
    And yet the dynos don't back that up. I understand that the fans might not give the car extra air flow or that the "feel" of the car might show it's not underpowered, but the fact of the matter is on a dyno it isn't making 400 hp (on average). I understand the resistance to face this fact based on the love and feel of the car, but another fact of the matter is other CTS-V cousins do not show this problem including "bottom breathers" like the Trans Am and Corvette that would be more obviously affected by air flow problems on a dyno. If the dyno study that Dinan did affected all cars equally then the low dynos would be a pandemic situation affecting all or most LSx platform cars. Which it does not, the only pandemic observation is that the CTS-V dynos low which would indicate the car is not making claimed power. IF the car is making the power on the street and not making the power on the dyno then the obvious conclusion is some sort of over-sensitive condition that rears its head on the dyno. While I do believe Dinan has researched their observations on cars they modify (BMW cars), cars that we modify are showing no where near the 70HP sensitivity range Dinan does, rather only the CTS-V platform is showing abnormality.

    So the question remains, on a dyno why does this car on average not make its advertised power? If the car is oversensitive, what happens under high stress situations? The Dyno is hardly high stress compared to an actual drag race, and especially in hot weather conditions.
    what about intake design?

  15. #105
    GNSCOTT is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    A dyno is for tuning a car. If you are trying to get accurate and consistant #'s from a dyno, good luck. If a non professional board member can run a 13.2@108 with a 2.3 60ft than I have to beleive with the right launch this car can run in the 12's. The new Vette with the Z51pkg 6 spd. and 400HP is repoted by GM to run the 1/4 in 12.6@ 115mph. Add 400#'s to that same car and you have a 13.0 and that is with the LS2 which has a much better torque curve than the LS6,. I am not blindly sticking up for the car. The promised performance is there. It is faster than my 03 Vette, so I know its there. If you are looking for HP try:

    Running it on a cool day
    run it on a day w/ low humidity
    put a high speed fan in front of the car
    dyno it at sea level

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