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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, Class Action Law Suit Against G.m. in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Originally Posted by Shinkaze I agree GM has to design this car to operate in all conditions, however a Dyno ...
  1. #76
    Devil_concours is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinkaze
    I agree GM has to design this car to operate in all conditions, however a Dyno is not exactly a worse case condition. If the car has a tendency to drop to a lower table then I would call that a "problem". Especially since it seams to be the norm rather than the exception based on the dynos shown so far. (assuming that alone is the sole cause which we have not identified for sure yet). Your car may have recovered once on the street, but showing an excessive tendency to drop to a lower table would be a problem especially once you start driving hard and really heating things up. (i.e. "sure its a 400hp motor until you start to horse it around").

    So I would say a deeper understanding of this problem is required, and Cadillac needs to be the one investigating the issue.

    -Adam
    i would also argue that tiny fan that they use at dyno shops are no where near the real life highway speed travel. Hence dinan's article explaining impact of fan on dyno result

  2. #77
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil_concours
    i would also argue that tiny fan that they use at dyno shops are no where near the real life highway speed travel. Hence dinan's article explaining impact of fan on dyno result
    I would agree with your assesment if this situation was not isolated to just the CTS-V. Were that the case we would see similar issue with the Vettes, GTO, Camaros, etc, but we don't. GTOs are very consistantly putting 297 to the wheels on different days different dynos. If fans were the case it would be a bit more pandemic and stretch well beyond just CTS-Vs.

  3. #78
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    If the engine is starting to spark knock (detonate) due to low octane fuel and/or high inlet temps (characteristic of operation on a chassis dyno) then the knock sensor senses the knock and retards the spark advance to protect the engine. Same on all knock control systems. If the spark knock is persistent then the spark control algorithm in the PCM drops to a lower base spark table that is representative of lower octane fuel as a starting point for the spark delivery. There are a number of spark advance tables in the PCM that are calibrated for different octane fuels based on detonation characteristics of the fuel. The knock control system uses the different tables based on the knock level measured to avoid any driveability issues with low octane fuel and then trims from there.

    The engine will produce the rated power if the proper, high octane fuel is provided. Period. If the knock control is retarding the spark to protect the engine then better fuel needs to be used and/or better cooling and cooler inlet temp air needs to be provided on the dyno. If the knock system is retarding the spark due to detonation then it will not make the rated power. Period. It is the operators responsibility to put good fuel in the car if max power is desired/required. Power is very sensitive to spark advance so if any retard at all is needed to prevent detonation then the advertised power will not be produced.

    Understand that advertised power is run on an engine dyno under carefully controlled conditions with the engine maintained at a steady state condition for many minutes at each RPM/power point to establish a fixed and stabile power delivery as a reference. It is not the result of a 10 second dyno "pull" on an inertia dyno..... Understand, also, that the advertised power numbers are corrected for atmospheric pressure and temperature per SAE J1349 procedures....same as what other manufacturers use. Per SAE J1349 the inlet temp is corrected to 77 degrees F. What this means that if the inlet temp is above 77 F you are guaranteed that the observed power will be less than advertised. This is the same for all engines so nothing new here...but I see little or no mention of what the inlet air temps were for all the dyno pulls on chassis dyno's being referenced.

    The chassis dyno numbers can be corrected mathematically for the actual ambient inlet air temp...but I would not really trust corrections that cover more than 10 degrees F. GM advertised power runs are run with controlled inlet air conditions so that no correction is necessary. The system to provide this "controlled" or "conditioned" inlet air to standard temp and pressure is standard in every dyno cell used for advertised power so it will be hard to argue with the data unless you have the same setup. If the chassis dyno is running on a day when the ambient temp is 90 or 100 near the car then the power is going to be way down as the inlet air is going to be 13-23 degrees F hotter than the correction used for advertised power.

    GM advertised power levels are generally somewhat conservative to avoid any controversy over power in the cars......so.......

    There is a huge difference in power measurements on chassis dyno's. The conditions are not nearly as well controlled as in engine dyno cells at the Powertrain development center at GM. Runs compare somewhat favorably run to run on any given dyno and operator but be carefull of absolute measurements from a chassis dyno. Be especially carefull of absolure measurements that are not corrected for standard temp and pressure. For the most accurate correction for ambient temp the ambient temp at the air inlet during the dyno run must be measured and used for the correction...not the temp on the wall 30 feet away.

    A CTS-V makes the advertised power. Trust me. Get good fuel and the correct inlet temps and then complain.


    BTW....octane rating at the station varies with the state, location, altitude, etc.... higher altitude states and cooler, northern states, tend toward lower octane "premium" due to the lower density of the air. Lower altitude states and hotter states tend towards the highest octane for Premium. A lot depends on where the fuel is being shipped from, etc...so this is a general summation.

  4. #79
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    That was one of the best technical, easy to understand posts I have read on here. Thank you bbob for your post. I feel that I am one of the people in your statement that said
    Quote Originally Posted by bbob
    "If the chassis dyno is running on a day when the ambient temp is 90 or 100 near the car then the power is going to be way down as the inlet air is going to be 13-23 degrees F hotter than the correction used for advertised power."
    I also think my pulls were being effected by more than one factor (hot inlet air temp, plus the oil temp alarm during the pulls).



    Dgtal

  5. #80
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    BTW....one other thing to consider....exhaust back pressure.

    The advertised power tests are NOT run with a full car exhaust system on the engine on the dyno. Instead, the backpressure of the car exhaust during a full throttle acceleration, with a moderately warm exhaust, is measured and then duplicated on the engine dyno with an orifice in the exhaust pipe or a gate valve.

    This is done to provide a stabile exhaust backpressure reading during extended power testing....testing that might go on for hours and hours without bringing the engine down to idle.

    The delimna with a car exhaust is that the backpressure changes constantly in the system with changes in temperature. This is due to the rapid cooling of the exhaust gases as they travel down the system and the changing volume of the exhaust gases as a result. The less volume of the exhaust gases the less backpressure will be seen. The hotter the exhaust system gets the hotter the exhaust gases stay and the more backpressure there is...and the less power will be made.

    This is a huge problem with chassis dynos and repeated runs..and absolute power measurements on a chassis dyno. The exhaust system is rarely cooler with fans on a chassis dyno so the system hot soaks under the car in still air and the exhaust backpressure is rarely, if ever, representative of what the backpressure is on the street driving along with air flow under the car cooling the exhaust.

    This change in backpressure is very very obvious in measured, instrumented testing. As an example, a system that is classified as a "15 inches of mercury backpressure system" for a transient condition at WOT/6000 RPM on a passenger car might measure as follows: 12-13 inches if the system is stone cold on a first 0-80 pass, 15 inches on a pass with a system that was running at 70MPH to stabilise, 18 inches on extened full throttle operation for 20-30 seconds, 20 inched on full throttle/top speed running continuously (autobahn), 23-24 inches if installed on a dyno and run continuously for several minutes (still air around system), 25-26 inches if run continuously on a dyno.

    As you can see, there is NO WAY to run a car exhaust on a chassis dyno or an engine dyno and meet representative backpressure measurements on a typical , transient backpressure test. Absolutely no way. Even with fans and coolers the exhaust will still not be cooled the same as a 100 MPH blast under the car....no way. Been there, tried/done that...and failed.

    The exhaust on a CTS-V is tucked up a bit more than some other cars so that may be causing some more of the variability between runs and on an aboslute basis. On a chassis dyno I would say that the system would have to be pretty "cold" to duplicate the backpressure seen on the street on a 77 degree day with high speed cooling air over it. The CTS-V exhaust system is a bit "quieter" than on the Corvette Z06 application (this is a Cadillac....LOL) so it will be necessarily a bit more restrictive and more sensitive to temp changes of the system. A hot CTS-V system will be a bit more restrictive on a chassis dyno than a "hot" Z06 system I would theorize.

  6. #81
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    wow.....thanks. that's really informative and easy to understand.

  7. #82
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbob
    A CTS-V makes the advertised power. Trust me. Get good fuel and the correct inlet temps and then complain.
    First kudos on a well written explanation of the variables affecting power and dyno reults, however your points do not support the above thesis. I'm been to dozens of dyno days, witnessed hundreds of dynos, and I still cannot subscribe to the logic you are presenting that a car that averages 320 RWHP on the dyno makes 400 crank HP.

    From a Macroobservation all variables being equal, an honest power rating would result in similar power defficits on the dyno for other LSX platform cars. This is decidedly not the case as shown by the consistantcy of other platforms to make their advertised power within an acceptable drivetrain loss factor. Case in point of the dozen or so M6 GTO's that have been dynoed in variable conditions they have consistantly made 297 at the wheels. The observation based on your argument above would be that we should see only a handful of GTO's making 297 RWHP as a majority would have adverse conditions that would kill their power as seen with the CTS-V.

    Rather the CTS-V has consitantly dynoed 20 RWHP above the LS1 GTO and 30 RWHP below the LS6 Z06. That would indicate either:

    a.) The engine is not making the advertised 400 hp

    or

    b.) Some factor is making the car dyno lower than a 400hp car should.

    I assume based on your argument that you are arguing for "b.)" so the next question is what would cause a CTS-V to dyno substantually lower than other LSX cars, which would again point to some sort of fault. We have already seen that CTS-V has some gremlins to shake out. So I think it is not a stretch to make the observation this is the case with the observed power output as well.

    The regretable issue here is that some owners will have "emperor's new clothes" syndrome until some of their compatriots uncover a "fix" that consitantly recovers the 30 RWHP deficit. Either way the issue should be brought to Cadillac, otherwise I'm sure they'll "fix" later versions of the car iwth no explanation and 2004 owners will see a 30 RWHP deficit when compared to later versions.

    -Adam

  8. #83
    railcop094 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Maybe someone needs a little cheese to go with their whine.

    I boils down to whether or not you like your car. Everyone seemed to like them until they found out their dynos were a little light. However I love mine and it has a very good seat of the pants feel. That simply means that it pulls hard like I expect and handles well to boot. Heck I had mine up to 146 mph yesterday in a short distance and it was still pulling hard in 5th gear until I ran out of my limited roadway.

    Don't run any dynos unless you have at least 93 octane fuel in the car and don't expect it to pull what you want if you baby the thing around all the time. Cars run according to how they are broken in. I have always been a firm believer of that. Law suits seem a bit over reactionary to me. If you are not happy with the car, sell it. There are plenty of people out there willing to take it off your hands. I have picked on Mustangs, Trans Ams and Camaros with mine and love every minute of it.

  9. #84
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    I do agree with Shinkaze. He has some good points and above all he stays away from flaming. BTW, he never said he is not happy with the car but with some of its idiosyncrasies.

    To give and read about such opinions is the foundation of a forum. Writing letters to each other just how wonderful our car is would be kind of boring, wouldn’t it?



    If it were discovered that let's say the V’s resonator eats 25 RWHP would we not all be happy to learn about this?


  10. #85
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Thanks Silver baron

    Railcop094,
    I'll take a nice Brie with my Merlot thank you

    Serriously though I'm not saying the V is underpowered, I just want to make sure everyone's V is living up to full potential!

    -Adam

  11. #86
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    RESURECTION Time

    The other day I picked up an old car mag and started reading through it. I came upon an add, and just happened to read it. It was a Chevy 2001 Z06 add. 0-60 claimed? 4 second flat. However, in the SAME magazine they pit the Z06 against the C5-R (I think) and rate the tested 0-60 as 4.6s. I did a search on Road and TRack and Motor Trend. Seems the 2001 Z06 was testing at about 4.5-4.7s.

    Let's add the Z06 to the class action lawsuit...

    Also, let's add the Audi A4. Audi claims 0-60 for the 3.0L as 7s, but the best I can find in the mags is 7.7s (that just happens to be one that was together in the magazine as well). I bet you'd find some serious discrepancies between most manufacture claims (which is BEST times) and most mag tested times (which is AVERAGE times)...

    Done. It can die again.
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  12. #87
    Dreamin is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    I believe GM produced a video showing John Heinricy doing a 0-60 in 4.0 or 4.1sec... lots of practice, insanely hard launch, and speed shifting. I'll search the Z06 forum if anyone cares... it's been a few years.

    Also, a buddy of mine just dyno'd his bone stock '02 Z06 14K miles: 363.7rwhp (CF=1.00)... I'm going to take my V to the same dyno when it has a few more miles.

  13. #88
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Would be nice to see back to back dyno runs of your buddies Z06 and your V Dreamin to ensure similar ambient conditions, dyno calibration, etc. :coolgleam

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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamin
    I believe GM produced a video showing John Heinricy doing a 0-60 in 4.0 or 4.1sec... lots of practice, insanely hard launch, and speed shifting.
    My guess - that's how they hit 4.6 in the V...
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  15. #90
    GNSCOTT is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    You have to use the same Dyno on the same days. I've been to a couple of Dyno days and know one thing, it is HARD to find a 100% bone stock Corvette that would pay to go on a Dyno. They all had some small mods. I say if there is any HP missing, it is all in the headers.

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