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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, Class Action Law Suit Against G.m. in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Originally Posted by T_Dogg8 what about the people who are saying they're getting 340 and above?? and some people saying ...
  1. #61
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by T_Dogg8
    what about the people who are saying they're getting 340 and above?? and some people saying they're getting 320 with no fans. and someone on here said a good fan could add 10 hp on a chasis dyno. so now we're at 330 which is 17.5%. if people were reporting 300 and under, then i'd say you have a chance at a lawsuit. but i'm not seeing that yet.
    FWIW the folks with the 1999 Cobra's won theirs based on Ford overating by 15hp at the crank.

    Unless there are more dynos out the averages I've seen for the CTS-V is in the 320 range, I've only seen one over 330 (336 I think?).

    Again I think it's premature to take legal action, the group should start by opening a constructive dialogue with Cadillac, and if that fails then look for other methods. Thats just my advice though.

    Keep in mind though bean counters at the big three rule and if there is a fault or failure, they're more likely to quietly fix it on next years models than retro-fix cars already sold. That's standard operating procedure for a car company. Heck it's hard enough to get a car company to do a safety recall, and only then will they do it if the cost of the recall is less than the cost of the law suits from the burned up victoms. (Remember the Pinto)

  2. #62
    T_Dogg8's Avatar
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    the courts have said you only have to prove 5% off in either direction and you can win. however, you're only going to win no more than 50 bucks. they aren't going to retro-fix your cars, but it will decrease the car's resale value, probably by a good bit. there's enough evidence for the courts, but i don't think there's enough evidence for cadillac to make changes. they probably will anyway though. you can't keep the same car with no upgrades for very long without sales really hurting.

  3. #63
    Jerseyboy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    We have dynoed a couple of CTS-V's at the shop and the first one made a pathetic 315rwhp. The second car (our personal shop car) made 342 rwhp with ~1000miles on the car - bone stock. The first car was found to be running on the low octane spark table during the dyno pulls. On the street, it actually ran in the Hi Octane tables and had full performance.

    We are currently working on the wheel hop issue and have been able to lessen it, but we have not completely eliminated it....yet. Right now, if you launch too softly, it will hop, if you launch too aggressively, it blows the tires off it and spins. There is a ~500rpm sweet spot where it will hook and go. Further development is planned and we hope to eliminate it totaly in the near future.

    Any lawsuit will just damage the cars reputaion. The 4.6 0-60 was actually achieved by GM, but it was VERY hard on the clutch and took alot of finesse to get it right. Lets face it, most of us mere mortals are not as good a driver as the Factory guys who get paid to do this for a living day in and day out.

    Jersey

  4. #64
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerseyboy
    Lets face it, most of us mere mortals are not as good a driver as the Factory guys who get paid to do this for a living day in and day out.

    Jersey
    ain't that the truth. those guys have a job that really sucks, huh.

  5. #65
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by T_Dogg8
    the courts have said you only have to prove 5% off in either direction and you can win. however, you're only going to win no more than 50 bucks. they aren't going to retro-fix your cars, but it will decrease the car's resale value, probably by a good bit. there's enough evidence for the courts, but i don't think there's enough evidence for cadillac to make changes. they probably will anyway though. you can't keep the same car with no upgrades for very long without sales really hurting.
    That is simply not the case. Ford had to fix the 1999 Cobra to bring it back up to advertised HP levels. In regards to the RX8 it was less than 5% off advertised figures. Mazda offered to either buy back the cars or for those chooisng to keep their cars, they recieved "free maintenance for four years and a card good for $500 in parts and accessories, ..."

    Source:
    http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/mazda5_20030905.htm

    As for hurting values, thats already been done. Look at the price difference used between a 2000 model Vette and 2001 Model Vette, mostly because of major updates to the LS1 for the 2001 model year. If Caddy "fixes" the 2005 CTS-V then 2004 cars will suffer similar depreciation.

  6. #66
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerseyboy
    We have dynoed a couple of CTS-V's at the shop and the first one made a pathetic 315rwhp. The second car (our personal shop car) made 342 rwhp with ~1000miles on the car - bone stock. The first car was found to be running on the low octane spark table during the dyno pulls. On the street, it actually ran in the Hi Octane tables and had full performance.
    That just confirms there may be a simple fix that Caddy needs to do a recal on, but even something as simple as a spark plug swap will not be a recall issue untill CTS-V owners bring this issue up with Caddy.

  7. #67
    globed70 is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    I'm not complaining about the issue, but there is a valid point. If you average the results from chassis dynos accross a variety of "cousins" like a Z06, base C5, GTO, F-car, and so on... the same variables affect all cars... whether it be vehicle variability, drive-line losses, placement and type of fans, a/f ratios (maps, trims, etc), and so on.

    So the issue is that accross the "cousins" with T56 transmissions, the 15% driveline loss estimate seems to work... ON AVERAGE. So, the VALID question is why aren't more CTS-V results showing an AVERAGE of 340hp at the rear-wheels. I'm not complaining, nor am I supporting legal action. But I DO AGREE that there is a VERY VALID complaint based on statistical averages, not one specific dyno result.

    It is quite POSSIBLE, that in reality the intake and exhaust work done to the LS6 in the CTS-V has caused more than 5hp difference at the crank between it and the Z06. This should be quite easy to prove on average. Compare the power increase on the Z06 after doing an intake and cat-back exhaust with the increase on the CTS-V after doing similar mods. If the increase on the V is far greater than the 5hp crank difference, then they suffocated the thing much more than 5hp.

  8. #68
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    does the ctsv run the trick cat converters and valve train upgrades the later 405hp z06 got over the lower rated z06 from a few years ago ? just curious if it got all the goodies the last z06 vettes had ..then again it is advertised at 400+ hp ...

    does it in competition mode change the numbers on the dyno or is it just a override of stability controll?

    i dont own one but im curious cuz they are one of my all time fav cars

  9. #69
    globed70 is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoneage_Caddy
    does the ctsv run the trick cat converters and valve train upgrades the later 405hp z06 got over the lower rated z06 from a few years ago ? just curious if it got all the goodies the last z06 vettes had ..then again it is advertised at 400+ hp ...

    does it in competition mode change the numbers on the dyno or is it just a override of stability controll?

    i dont own one but im curious cuz they are one of my all time fav cars
    The LS6 is meant to be identical (except for revised oil pan and accessory pullies) to CURRENT Z06... intake and exhaust are different. But 400HP is 400HP, and meant to be rated with all the crap attached.

    And negative on comp mode... part of traction and stability control system.

  10. #70
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Hmm I think Jeresyboy has some interesting findings. I'm curious to see if those low-dynos are all on a different Fuel map. If so then the question is what is causing the car to run on a low-map, that might very well be the reason.

    Of course my point about raising the issue with Cadillac is they're the ones that should figure out whats wrong and tell us, not the other way around

    I sure hope it's that easy though.

  11. #71
    Jerseyboy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    The engine is rated as installed in the vehicle, with all the accessories in place, Alternator loaded as it would be in the vehicle, full vehicle exhaust or representative back pressure based on vehicle measurements amy be used. All data is corrected to SAE standards.

    It's not completely identified what causes the car to run in the low octane table. Some believe it is due to consistant knock sensor activity. There is nothing "wrong" with the car. The fact that the car performed properly on the street, means it is adjusting to suit the conditions at which it is operating. It's doing exacty what it needs to do to keep the engine alive. Remember, we don't race dynos, they only tell part of the story.

    You have to realize that this vehicle has to be calibrated to run on pump gas (only 91 octane in some states - think that might be an issue with some dyno numbers?), pass pollution and noise emissions tests, and try to satisfy each and every one of you guys who owns them. Some of you will give up the smooth ride to get rid of the wheel hop, some won't. Some will live with air induction noise, some won't. Some like a rough idle, some don't. Personally, I think GM did a pretty impressive job with the V. I know they are working on the hop issue and will implement it on the h\newer cars when they get an acceptable solution that can satisfy each and every one of you. This is a mass produced car after all, not a tuner vehicle.

    Jersey

  12. #72
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    91 octane is all some states get?? wow. i guess i'm lucky to get 93 at the gas stations i go to and 94 if i want it.

    what exactly is "low octane spark table"??

  13. #73
    Devil_concours is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    maybe the dyno fans aren't blowing enough air so the computer lowers spark table

  14. #74
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerseyboy
    It's not completely identified what causes the car to run in the low octane table. Some believe it is due to consistant knock sensor activity. There is nothing "wrong" with the car. The fact that the car performed properly on the street, means it is adjusting to suit the conditions at which it is operating. It's doing exacty what it needs to do to keep the engine alive. Remember, we don't race dynos, they only tell part of the story.
    I agree GM has to design this car to operate in all conditions, however a Dyno is not exactly a worse case condition. If the car has a tendency to drop to a lower table then I would call that a "problem". Especially since it seams to be the norm rather than the exception based on the dynos shown so far. (assuming that alone is the sole cause which we have not identified for sure yet). Your car may have recovered once on the street, but showing an excessive tendency to drop to a lower table would be a problem especially once you start driving hard and really heating things up. (i.e. "sure its a 400hp motor until you start to horse it around").

    So I would say a deeper understanding of this problem is required, and Cadillac needs to be the one investigating the issue.

    -Adam

  15. #75
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    what does dropping to a lower octane spark table mean??

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