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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, Class Action Law Suit Against G.m. in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Okay, here's my take: 1) Dyno's: I'm not an expert on this, but pretty much when I had some free ...
  1. #46
    miscreant's Avatar
    miscreant is offline GM Connection
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Okay, here's my take:

    1) Dyno's: I'm not an expert on this, but pretty much when I had some free time, I read up on it a little on the net. Seem's that alot of people complain about HP numbers at the rear wheels when compared to factory claims. I read some threads about the nissan maxima back in 2000 I think where they were getting like 180 rwhp from 5 speeds (or 6?) when it was rated at 255hp. I read some camaro threads and F-body threads. Looks like parasitic drain is around 15-20% for manual transmissions, but it looks like it not just dependent on transmission, but also gearing/differential, intake, exhaust, etc...Now that LS6 is CRAMMED in there, bet those exhaust manifolds aren't exactly free flowing. Also bet the exhaust is tuned to not make "too much" noise...well, etc...Point is that I see most of the dynos on the V in the 320-330 range. That's 17.5% to 20% drain. I don't think that's that far off at all guys. Seems right around where it should be - a little low, yes, but I think I read somewhere someone dumped JUST and intake on theirs and was up into the 335 rwhp range! That kinda proves that the engine is capable of making the power, it's just held back, probably mostly from the CRAMMING it took...

    2) I honestly believe the FG2 was GM's immediate reaching to provide those that wanted it, track/drag performance. I don't think GM ever designed the V to be a straight dragger, or else they (like it's been said before) would have put super firm suspension on it from the factory, and used urethane instead of rubber isolator bushings in the suspension, or thrown a solid rear axle under there. But of course to swim with the big boys, they had to throw that ultimate 0-60 number out there, which I'm sure they obtained at some time, wome way, but like EVERY other manufacturer it's very difficult to obtain those claimed times. Those 03 CTS owners who bought their CTS for the 6.9s 0-60 are pretty pissed off too (jk!).

    I bet GM decided to semi-fix the wheel-hop (enough to give most people all the grip they'd ever need) quietly, so as not to cause the large uproar we seem to be causing here - it could have save a big "value reduction" press smear if they would've come out admitting "failure" and offering free parts. Instead, they decide to give the "track" option to those that want it, as if saying "There's nothing wrong with the CTS-V, we just have made it even better" - I'd think that is what we'd want.

    .....And I digress.

    For anyone who has not driven/launched an FG2 car, I'd do that FIRST before you continue to scream about wheel hop - you'd be quite surprised. And for those that would then shout out "we shoudn't have to pay for a fix for wheel hop", I would counter as I always have that the V was designed to be an all-around performer and is NOT the only "super touring" car that has this to deal with - but with 395 lbs/ft of TQ, it's hard to hide it . Judging by the number of people who have emailed me about selling their FG2 they didn't have installed, I'd say many people prefer the ride and handling from the factory and have no compaints about the wheel hop...
    2004 Cadillac CTS (**SOLD** ): http://www.ctsowners.com
    2004 Pontiac GTO: http://www.myyellowgto.com

  2. #47
    wildwhl's Avatar
    wildwhl is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Just a note. More Performance listed their Procharged CTS/V on Ebay for sale. Their information claims 625 crank/524 rwhp. That's about 17% loss. That's right where I'd guess it to be, and as a percentage of drivertrain loss our stock V's will be higher. Just an FYI. Seems to me the car, with anybodies engine, has a less efficient drivetrain than some owners may have hopes for, but efficient enough by my standards. I say anything less than 20% is good enough - and we're below that for sure by the dynos posted.

    Let's stop arguing about this, and start discussing ways to actually improve our ownership experience, enjoy our vehicles, and get on with life. We've received exactly what we expected to when we purchased the car - a nearly perfect first attempt that kills most (if not all) of the competition for a fantastic price, and it was born right here in the red, white and blue.

    I'll be patient and wait for the fixes. Which reminds me...Cal...when are our Mallett shifters supposed to ship? Should be soon...and then there's the Corsa, Kooks headers, soon to be released FI kits, appearance, interior and electronics mods, Bimmers in the rearview...ahh, I digress as well...this is going to be one hell of a ride over the next few years.

  3. #48
    Cal
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    They said 2 weeks last week or the week before, heh. Probably like 4 weeks in reality-time. I will call her this week and find out.

    Corsa I would guess July (duh). Kooks, let's hope soon, but I doubt less than 2 months away. Sucks since I won't get em for the summer, and this car is going in the garage once it gets wet and nasty. If Corsa comes with no sign of Kooks I will just do cats/Corsa at the same time and put Kooks on later.

    My tuner shop is getting AFR heads for the first time this week, so we'll see how those suckers do. If I do end up doing just heads I will also do throttle body and a tune for airflow (obviously). Probably won't crack the engine till next year barring anything major, see how the 2006s are looking by then.

    AFR are around 2400 they confirmed, and my guy says you get $1k on the ebay/sale for your stock LS6 heads, so generously you get a set of sweet heads for only $1500 or so out of pocket. Pretty nice when they are supposed to put down more power than anything else out ther that is $2500+ INCLUDING the core.

    Sorry to threadjack, I can use any excuse to talk about tuning.

    But like I said in the Mallett thread this car should be throwing down over 450 at the wheels for under 6k. Just wait and see.

  4. #49
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    I think it can be done - but will wait to watch you do it

  5. #50
    globed70 is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Miscreant: the official method for engine dyno is to have the complete intake , exhaust, abd accessory drives in place. So they ARE saying 400hp at the crank with all the crap in place. Just a fact.

    Benjet: I'd have someone look at the alignment, tire pressures, tread wear, etc. My wheel hop is usually from a stop and if I dump it into 2nd gear. If I get on it hard in low speed corners, I've gotten it a bit... but never to the extent you are discussing. Most of my high power IRS cars would hop in the rain (Viper and M5 for example). Yours shouldn't be as bad as it is.

  6. #51
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    I posted my feelings on suing for profit here

    Dgtal

  7. #52
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    I respect miscreant and the like...I don't want a lawsuit- it doesnt benefit anyone. I wouldnt leave GM over this.
    I just want an identified root cause on wheel hop though. There is a reason they can take a V and smoke the rears and put it on teh web and I can't accelerate with confidence. It hurts me in turns in third. And i really dont want to have to pay for FG2 plus isntallantion.

    seriously, just talk to me. thats all i want. talk to me. i fill out your surveys... i gave the XLR incredible marks for quality that it deserves. i answer teh dealer survey callers after a service visit.... why can't i get an answer to my one question? I called 15 people trying to find out if scheduled maintenance would be included and never got an answer until i came to this board.
    have my sales rep call me and say hey, here is the 411.

    If FG2 is the solution, tell me, and put it on my car and let me go home happy. if its because they are goodyears and not michelins, tell me so i can put new rubber on teh car (i hate goodyears).

    the ONLY thing that doesn;t let me dismiss teh 4.6 second claim is what happened with the GTO. the claimed 5.5 and most magazines are getting that, or better... 5.3. otherwise i would let it go.

    but my motiviation is not a lawsuit. my motivation is a quiet fix.

    [I could care less about dyno numbers}

  8. #53
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Disclaimer: I do not own a V however I have owned GM V8s for the past 15 years and currently own an LS1. I am however inthe Market for a CTS-V, S4, M3 or C55 AMG.

    I think folks here are confusing the issue. There is a difference between the car being underpowered and over rated. I don't think anyone here would say that a car that makes 320 RWHP is underpowered. However, anyone with any time under their belt at a chassis dyno would say that a car making 320 RWHP is NOT making 400 at the crank. Here are the facts of the matter.

    1.) The V does not put down power to the wheel like a 400 hp car. Even the e39 M5 rated at less power puts down 330. The V is only making 20 more RWHP than a GTO.

    2.) The V is not reaching claimed performance figures. (0-60 and Qtr Mile)

    The specualtion is that this could be:

    1.) An engineering fault like the RX8
    2.) Excessive drivetrain loss (Doesn't address fact 2 though.)

    I agree that a Lawsuit should be a last resort, however if I was a V owner I would try to get answers from GM on why the V isn't making proper power and performance as claimed by them. Especially since this could be the forerunner of an engine failure or fault.

    I can respect the site admins not wanting this forum to become the rally point of a class action law suit, however I want to respectfully point out that Corral.net was a rally point for Cobra owners and through that Ford addressed and fixed their concerns. When the M3s started popping motors...

    http://members.roadfly.com/jason/m3engines.htm

    .. The members used Roadfly as their rally point and through that pressure got BMW to admit they messed up the engine's oiling system and got their motors replaced under warranty.

    My feeling is that it is too early to start a law suit, however, I do think that this group should, in a respectful manner "consolidate efforts" and go to Cadillac with this issue. Give Cadillac the opportunity to become aware and adress the issue and offer resolution. If Cadillac ignores the problem or refuses to aknowledge the problem, then use more pressure.

    -Adam

  9. #54
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    1. Dyno numbers are not repeatable or precise. GTO's don't have near the same pull on the road in 3rd gear like a V does. Drive both, the GTO seems like a Cavalier afterwards.
    2. GM's 0-60 and 1/4 mile times are doable with the correct clutch-killing launch.

  10. #55
    lasstss's Avatar
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    I can attest to the torque. The V pulls hard once it gets moving. I have chirped the tires in 5th. That is a lot of torque! (with a passenger)! On the race course I was pushing a C-5 vette with an aftermarket exhaust.

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    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthV
    1. Dyno numbers are not repeatable or precise. GTO's don't have near the same pull on the road in 3rd gear like a V does. Drive both, the GTO seems like a Cavalier afterwards.
    2. GM's 0-60 and 1/4 mile times are doable with the correct clutch-killing launch.
    1.) The only repeatable things the dynos have proven is that that the CTS-V doesn't show the power of a 400 crank HP car. Not sure why you wouldn't be concerned about this?
    2.) Great, show me the test that matches their stated figures.

  12. #57
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by lasstss
    I can attest to the torque. The V pulls hard once it gets moving. I have chirped the tires in 5th. That is a lot of torque! (with a passenger)! On the race course I was pushing a C-5 vette with an aftermarket exhaust.
    Again no one is saying the CTS-V is underpowered. They are saying its over rated as the CTS-V has yet to consistantly show dynos supporting 400 crank hp.

  13. #58
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    on average....how much hp is lost in the drivetrain?? at 320, that's about a 25% loss. i thought that was about average. and a lot of people are saying they are getting more hp than that.

  14. #59
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by T_Dogg8
    on average....how much hp is lost in the drivetrain?? at 320, that's about a 25% loss. i thought that was about average. and a lot of people are saying they are getting more hp than that.
    25% is what you get with an AWD system or a really lossy automatic. The CTS-V has essentially the same driveline as a GTO. (The GTO is based on the Opel Omega platform which is the forerunner to the Sigma platform on which the CTS-V is made). Manual tranny GTOs make 297 at the wheel on an advertised 350. 350 crank HP with 15% loss is 297.50 RWHP. So about dead on at 15%.

    At 15% loss the CTS-V should make 340 RWHP instead of the average 320.

  15. #60
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    what about the people who are saying they're getting 340 and above?? and some people saying they're getting 320 with no fans. and someone on here said a good fan could add 10 hp on a chasis dyno. so now we're at 330 which is 17.5%. if people were reporting 300 and under, then i'd say you have a chance at a lawsuit. but i'm not seeing that yet.

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