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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, Class Action Law Suit Against G.m. in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Originally Posted by 6104696 In most class action suits, the lawyers make millions in legal fees and the damaged parties ...
  1. #16
    wildwhl's Avatar
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6104696
    In most class action suits, the lawyers make millions in legal fees and the damaged parties get like a buck fifty. As a result, operating expenses for the car companies go up and therfore so do prices. You might get a used car for 38 K but you might not if GM stops making the cars if they feel that it is not worth the hassle. Courts get clogged with rich guys complaining about not enough performance in their performance cars, and real civil cases against negligent harmdoers get delayed.

    Don't know the story of the Cobra. I'm a lawyer, I respect the legal system, and I beleive everyone is free to use it. That being said, I don't see anything here that makes a lawsuit the answer.

    Doug
    Doug -

    I agree full heartedly. I am not advocating a lawsuit in any of my posts - and hope none of you have read my opinion to be in favor of one. I am suggesting that written letter campaign, or the sort (email doesn't cut it), may make some headway in finding out if performance numbers without wheel hop can be achieved.

    I would hate to see a lawsuit over this vehicle. The current "scandal" alone is damaging the reputation of one fine automobile. It certainly doesn't help that the wheel hop is stopping the magazines from backing up the performance claims.

  2. #17
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Two very separate issues here... we should not mix them.

    1) Not making 400hp: false advertising; false HP claims; etc... this could be a lawsuit
    2) Oil temp & wheel hop: These are mechanical problems with the car, because it is the first year of production... dont think you can sue for these.

    And you cant (shouldn't) sue for #1, just because you're upset about #2!

    Oil Temp: mfg's take a LONG time fixing things, the fix has to be designed, built, lab tested, field tested, then tested some more, then put into production. It took ford 2 years to fix the Lightning intercooler leak... which leaked coolant into the cylinders and blew up engines... but they wouldn't release the fix until they were sure it worked. It took GM almost 1.5 years for fix the '01 Z06 oil comsumption issue. Getting the oil fix out anytime this year would be pretty darn fast for Caddy.

    Wheel Hop: Caddy did answer our complaint... we' re just not happy with their answer... there is a difference. Fixing wheel hop obviously does something GM was not happy with... makes the ride too rough, NVH specs are too high for a Caddy... something. I think GM's going to let the aftermarket take car of this one.

  3. #18
    Cal
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Well put everyone. I agree that the idea seems frivolous to me and I would not want to do anything to cause them to abandon this car line, that's for damn sure. If my attorneys told me it might I would never sign a single piece of paper.

    As for the HP, I still think you are all on heroin and that when broken in the car does 340-350rwhp range. The gearing and setup of the car could account for most #s being in the 320-330 range prior to break-in, or it could account for greater-than-Z06 drivetrain loss on the LS6 engine, but I am pretty positive they did not detune the LS6 for this car, they just restricted the hp in other ways. And as long as GM's assertion of 400hp at the CRANK is correct, we are assed out.

    Incidentally, if Mallett is running a 435 he might have a stock LS6 out of his V sitting somewhere. Maybe ask him if he dyno'ed it on an engine dyno?

  4. #19
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    i don't see any good coming from a lawsuit. if you win, you'll get some money, but your car will perform the same. if you like the car, who cares. if you want more power, go buy aftermarket stuff from mallet or someone else. we're only talking a difference of maybe 30 hp at most. you're not going to feel that 99% of the time you own your car. if it was advertising 125 and getting 75, that'd be different. but until it's engine dyno'ed, i'd say don't worry about it and keep enjoying your car.

  5. #20
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    From my butt-o-meter, my V makes 400 hp. Is it 404 or 392 or 389? who knows to that level but it definitely right up there around 400. I just recently sold my Z28 T-56 with 3.73 gearing just like the V and that put 321 hp to the rear wheels and I have a Silverado SS that puts 332 hp to the wheels. The V pulls a ton stronger than either of those. Maybe I got a ringer! :coolgleam

  6. #21
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthV
    From my butt-o-meter, my V makes 400 hp. Is it 404 or 392 or 389? who knows to that level but it definitely right up there around 400. I just recently sold my Z28 T-56 with 3.73 gearing just like the V and that put 321 hp to the rear wheels and I have a Silverado SS that puts 332 hp to the wheels. The V pulls a ton stronger than either of those. Maybe I got a ringer! :coolgleam
    Maybe your butt-O-meter is specifically tuned for the V.



    Dgtal

  7. #22
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Is a butt-O-meter submissable in court?

    Dgtal

  8. #23
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Guys,
    If you decide to bring this lawsuit, you are just going to devalue our cars and make GM not want to play in this market again.

    I might agree that some numbers that people have been getting on the dynos are low, but there are alot of factors here (air flow, temp, altitude, driveline, etc) which can be the cause of these lower numbers.

    The best result you can hope for in a lawsuit is GM forced to buy back the car... What do you think they are going to do, tune everyone's motor and then dyno it to make sure itacheives what you consider to be a reasonable horsepower level (remember they advertise at the crank). It aint going to happen. I am happy with this car if the number is 323 or 335 hp... It still fast and still a great car and I dont want to give it up. I especially dont want it devalued because some folks acheived a low number on a chaisis dyno (with or without a fan) than they expected. If you dont like the car then sell it.

    I am keeping mine.

    On the reflash and wheelhop issue: The refalsh will be here, we just need to be patient.. Its a flaw they accept and they are going to fix it. We all know the car has wheelhop (I experienced it in a race this morning). GM will gladly put a solid rear in your car for those 1/4 mile launches... I prefer to handle better... The aftermarket WILL give us a solution, but its then your choice to take whatever symptoms come along with that (rougher ride, worse handling, etc). GM made a decision to appeal to most people they thought would be driving this car. They would have fixed it to begin with (if only to avoid this bad press) unless there was something comprimised by repairing it (i.e worse handling, part failure, etc). BTW: you probably knew about wheelhop before buying the car (if you did any research on the car) and still chose to buy. I did and will live with it until someone comes up with a real solution.

    Things I am more concerned about are driveline clunk. Thats a real issue.

    Sorry for my rant...

    Reed
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  9. #24
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrbadss
    Guys,
    If you decide to bring this lawsuit, you are just going to devalue our cars and make GM not want to play in this market again.

    I might agree that some numbers that people have been getting on the dynos are low, but there are alot of factors here (air flow, temp, altitude, driveline, etc) which can be the cause of these lower numbers.

    The best result you can hope for in a lawsuit is GM forced to buy back the car... What do you think they are going to do, tune everyone's motor and then dyno it to make sure itacheives what you consider to be a reasonable horsepower level (remember they advertise at the crank). It aint going to happen. I am happy with this car if the number is 323 or 335 hp... It still fast and still a great car and I dont want to give it up. I especially dont want it devalued because some folks acheived a low number on a chaisis dyno (with or without a fan) than they expected. If you dont like the car then sell it.

    I am keeping mine.

    On the reflash and wheelhop issue: The refalsh will be here, we just need to be patient.. Its a flaw they accept and they are going to fix it. We all know the car has wheelhop (I experienced it in a race this morning). GM will gladly put a solid rear in your car for those 1/4 mile launches... I prefer to handle better... The aftermarket WILL give us a solution, but its then your choice to take whatever symptoms come along with that (rougher ride, worse handling, etc). GM made a decision to appeal to most people they thought would be driving this car. They would have fixed it to begin with (if only to avoid this bad press) unless there was something comprimised by repairing it (i.e worse handling, part failure, etc). BTW: you probably knew about wheelhop before buying the car (if you did any research on the car) and still chose to buy. I did and will live with it until someone comes up with a real solution.

    Things I am more concerned about are driveline clunk. Thats a real issue.

    Sorry for my rant...

    Reed
    http://www.cadillacfaq.com
    couldn't have said it better. cadillac will make the 'real' problems go away. if you're not happy with your car, you can always sell it. 10-15 hp shouldn't be a reason to sell it, but if it is, then by all means, sell it. you won't have a a tough time finding a buyer. GM is not going to be able to make a car that everyone likes. if they would have fixed the wheel hop people would complain it doesn't handle right. maybe someday both will be achieved. but for a first year car, i think they did pretty well so far.

  10. #25
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrbadss
    Guys,
    If you decide to bring this lawsuit, you are just going to devalue our cars and make GM not want to play in this market again.

    I might agree that some numbers that people have been getting on the dynos are low, but there are alot of factors here (air flow, temp, altitude, driveline, etc) which can be the cause of these lower numbers.

    The best result you can hope for in a lawsuit is GM forced to buy back the car... What do you think they are going to do, tune everyone's motor and then dyno it to make sure itacheives what you consider to be a reasonable horsepower level (remember they advertise at the crank). It aint going to happen. I am happy with this car if the number is 323 or 335 hp... It still fast and still a great car and I dont want to give it up. I especially dont want it devalued because some folks acheived a low number on a chaisis dyno (with or without a fan) than they expected. If you dont like the car then sell it.

    I am keeping mine.

    On the reflash and wheelhop issue: The refalsh will be here, we just need to be patient.. Its a flaw they accept and they are going to fix it. We all know the car has wheelhop (I experienced it in a race this morning). GM will gladly put a solid rear in your car for those 1/4 mile launches... I prefer to handle better... The aftermarket WILL give us a solution, but its then your choice to take whatever symptoms come along with that (rougher ride, worse handling, etc). GM made a decision to appeal to most people they thought would be driving this car. They would have fixed it to begin with (if only to avoid this bad press) unless there was something comprimised by repairing it (i.e worse handling, part failure, etc). BTW: you probably knew about wheelhop before buying the car (if you did any research on the car) and still chose to buy. I did and will live with it until someone comes up with a real solution.
    Sorry for my rant...

    Reed
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  11. #26
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    i guess the question is what do you want out of a lawsuit?? if you want your cars to gain performance, it's not going to happen. cadillac isn't going to change every car to meet the preferred numbers. if you want money, you might get 50 bucks, but other than that, the lawyers will get the money.

  12. #27
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    At 400 horses, we should see 365 I think. HP loss to the drivetrain is about 35 horses.
    The 400 is probably at the flywheel w/no intake or exhaust restrictions.

    Horsepower loss through drive train is a constant percentage based on the type of transmission you have. A manual transmission loses around 15%-17% of engine horsepower and an automatic transmission loses between 20%-25%.

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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by lasstss
    At 400 horses, we should see 365 I think. HP loss to the drivetrain is about 35 horses.
    The 400 is probably at the flywheel w/no intake or exhaust restrictions.

    Horsepower loss through drive train is a constant percentage based on the type of transmission you have. A manual transmission loses around 15%-17% of engine horsepower and an automatic transmission loses between 20%-25%.
    Hmm. 15%-17% of 400 = 340 - 332hp.
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  14. #29
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Hey you guys, PLEASE give these numbers games a rest! The V is a fantastic car, the fact that it is an American car is unbelievable. In reality, no one has out pulled me at any speed unless they were at least a quarter ton less weight or $20,000 more. We don't need a bad rap on our cars because a dyno gives a number. Drive the damn thing the way it was meant to be driven and you will forget the numbers. NOW, if they can correct the oil temp problem all will be good in Paridise. PS beat the s..t out of an EVO last night, he"s still trying to catch me.

  15. #30
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    Re: Class Action Law Suit Against G.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Beast
    Btw what did Ford owners get with the lawsuit.
    I read about this some years ago, and supposedly the '99 Cobra had the wrong-size camshaft, I believe. Cobra owners were able to bring in their Mustangs and Ford replaced the camshaft. They were very embarrassed by the incident, and I read that in a Ford magazine!

    With GM's X-car of 1980, there were lawsuits for the rear brakes locking and some cars went into a violent spin. I think some people got killed because of this, however that lawsuit took 10 years before any settlements were made if I recall.

    I have the July 2002 magazine called "Mustang Monthly." In the article called "Horsepower in the Mustang World," they engine-dyno several cars and the results are interesting. One of the cars tested was a bone stock 99 Cobra that had yet to have the "fix" installed. Another, a totally stock "Bullitt." The Cobra was advertized at making 320 hp, however it only made 250 hp at the wheels for a baseline!! Quite a difference! Several numbers were tossed around for the Bullitt Mustang of 2001, ranging from 275 to 270, the final number ended up being 265 hp. Apparently, Ford wanted to be on the conservative side and avoid another 99 Cobra incident. "Most Bullitts make enough power at the wheels to translate to around 270 hp at the flywheel. If you factor in a 15 percent parasitic loss in power for output at the wheels, it is easily making 265 ponies at the flywheel. We were happy to see the 240 mark coming out of the dynojets printer!"

    So supposedly, 30 hp difference is acceptable, or a 15 to 20% loss. The V is a great car, and this is nothing to be concerned over IMO.

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