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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, Why the PATHETIC rwhp ?? in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; what about more performance's comment regarding amount of gas. Didn't they say something about car not being able to perform ...
  1. #46
    Devil_concours is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??

    what about more performance's comment regarding amount of gas. Didn't they say something about car not being able to perform when there is less han 1/4 tank full of gas?

  2. #47
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    Re: Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil_concours
    does any of you have one of those g-tech units? what do they say? someone should try them out on an empty road sometime
    I have one but I haven't used it since the end of last year.

    My opinion with it; I have not compared it to 1/4 mile times at a track, so I don't know how accurate it is. However, it is very consistent. Every 0-60 run or 1/4 mile run on the same road would be the same every time. At most they were off by .1 sec.

  3. #48
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    Re: Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??

    Quote Originally Posted by wildwhl
    I know, you're thinking I'm lazy. I'm thinking I have 2 biz, 2 kids, and for all intensive purposes, 2 wives...
    Two wives does not equal twice the love. If ever the two should meet, it will hit the fan -->

  4. #49
    globed70 is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??

    Putting aside the inaccuracy of chassis dynos, the idea of comparing Z06 to CTS-V should give an indication of the "average" difference. One thing you haven't mentioned is the 3.73 axle ratio, compared to the Z06 3.42 ratio. The numerically higher ratio has been shown to reduce dyno numbers a bit.

    The oil temp sensor is an interesting thought... comparing the A/F map from the dyno runs between CTS-V and Z06 would be a good idea here.

    I don't believe you will find the engine internals have been changes (i.e. cams and so on) between these versions of the LS6. The accessory wheels were moved back a bit and the oil pan reshaped.

    IMHO it is a bit early to start pissing about class action suits and the like. The Cobra case is well known, and shame to those at Ford who let it happen. Mazda also had a similar problem. Dynos were run early on, then final packaging forced changes in intake or exhaust paths or components. If those average dyno results aren't within 20hp, then pissing is appropriate...

    And the G-Tech 1/4 mile numbers ARE NOT equivalent to track numbers... check their website for a good explanation of why.

  5. #50
    mister period is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??

    In the midst of this whole Ďscandalí has anybody investigated the traction/stability control effects upon a dyno run? Think about it, the system steps in with braking and engine output management based on sensor input. A dyno run sends some pretty contradictory inputs to the processor from the wheel speed sensors and accelerometers. How does it react? Even if the system was disabled by the owner for the runs that were reported (was it?) does it truly disable any action from the system?



    I know the Z06 has an active handling system. Is it the same hardware as the Cadillac Stabiltrak? If so, does it use the same algorithms? And has it always been available on the Z06, hence part of all the dyno runs being compiled?



    The same questions apply to the GTO.



    I donít have the answers, but would be very interested in hearing them from a reliable source. Letís find out if these comparisons are truly apples to appples, or if thereís some high tech manipulations occuring.



    If this is indeed a factor then it goes a long way towards explaining the disparity between actual owners real-world experiences and those of the non V-owning number crunchers.

  6. #51
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    Re: Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??

    The oil sensor item is on the top of my list. Once this is fixed I would like to do a pull and see if there is any changes (prior to mods). I drove to DynoComp and when they loaded the car I made sure to tell them not to worry about the oil temp alarm. It did go off during the pulls. If the oil temp alarm does any "detuning" during the pull I need to make sure the alarm is noted during the pulls.

    Dgtal

  7. #52
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    Re: Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??

    Quote Originally Posted by mister period
    In the midst of this whole Ďscandalí has anybody investigated the traction/stability control effects upon a dyno run?
    During my Pulls I had everything turned off (hold the traction control for more than five seconds).

    Dgtal

  8. #53
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    Re: Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??

    Quote Originally Posted by mister period
    Even if the system was disabled by the owner for the runs that were reported (was it?) does it truly disable any action from the system?
    Simply put - YES. Also effects of braking can be seen very easily (from my understanding) on dyno graphs.

  9. #54
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    Re: Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??

    Quote Originally Posted by DgtalPimp
    Two wives does not equal twice the love. If ever the two should meet, it will hit the fan -->
    The 2 wives thing is an ongoing joke for another time between my wife's best friend (who works for me) and her. Baically, they were both pregnant at the same time with their first kids a few years back and I was one sorry son of a gun with all the hormone alarms during the day.

    As to the Gtech 1/4 mile results - it was stated correctly above that they do not represent track times. I have used these types of devices in the past simply for comparision beyond seat of the pants dynos. They are quite consistent, and the pro seems even more so. The advantage being that you can't always trust your arse, and the numbers, when properly setup and executed, don't lie. They will let you know whether your mods have given you the expected result. I've had mods on vehicles before that "FELT" faster, but were in fact slowing the vehicle down...

    I'll continue playing with the G-tech, and will likely even head to TopGun raceway here this summer and lay down some real numbers for comparison. Oh, the fun this car is becoming

  10. #55
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    Re: Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??

    My recent dyno showed: 324 HP, max air/fuel 17.5 (more detailed data available)



    I also like you guys to check my thread: http://cadillacforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8924



    Donít get me wrong, I love my car but there is a good chance that the 400 HP are overly optimistic.

    I would be in to get on Cadillacís back about this.

  11. #56
    Chapel is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??

    chassis dynos cannot take into account certain aspects of engine performance
    doing the '15% driveline loss' scenario is retarded because its not the same for every car
    400bhp - 15% = 340whp
    most cars are 18% driveline loss
    400bhp - 18% = 328whp
    The more power you make, the more driveline loss you suffer from
    15% is a good number to go by when you make less than 200bhp
    16% is a good number for up to 300bhp
    17% - 25% for more and these numbers are not even concrete as some drivetrains create more loss

    I can already tell these people are doing their math by ADDING the 15% to their wheel numbers
    that is not driveline loss
    driveline loss is
    BHP - driveline loss% = whp
    so: BHP = whp/driveline loss%

    Also, some cars don't produce full horsepower on a dyno. Hell, the E46 M3 wont even pull past 6500rpms on a dyno.
    The RX-8 has a safety feature that keeps the cats from overheating when the car is not in motion so it goes into a sort of limp mode when put on a dyno.

    Im sorry, but 400bhp -17% driveline loss is well within tolerance.

  12. #57
    Cal
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    Re: Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??

    The oil temp light went on during your pull? Didn't for me. That sounds like a problem...oil temp for me has not been a factor at all even during HEAVY driving at the track (minus my first laps). Strange.

    I am tempted to put the factory airbox back on and dyno it again with 4k miles just to see what the heck.

    But the more people bandy stuff about the more convinced I am that the car has 400 at the crank...but then again I know jack all about cars.

  13. #58
    Shinkaze is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Chapel
    chassis dynos cannot take into account certain aspects of engine performance
    doing the '15% driveline loss' scenario is retarded because its not the same for every car
    400bhp - 15% = 340whp
    most cars are 18% driveline loss
    400bhp - 18% = 328whp
    The more power you make, the more driveline loss you suffer from
    No, that's simply not the case. Look at the LS1 Vette vs the z06 Vette.
    LS1 Vette Avg RWHP 300 on 350 hp = 14.2% (50hp)
    Z06 Vette Avg RWHP 355 on 405 hp = 12.3% (50hp again)

    The amount of power it takes to spin the same drivetrain becomes a smaller percentage of overall power as power increases. FWIW though the GTO which has largely identicle driveline makes 298 RWHP which is 350hp exactly at 15% loss (52hp). The CTS-V averages 320RWHP. So you're saying that against logic it takes almost 30 more HP to spin the same driveline in the CTS than the GTO? I think not, besides the Vette proves the inverse is true that as power increases the percent of overall parasitic drag as a function of total power decreases.
    15% is a good number to go by when you make less than 200bhp
    16% is a good number for up to 300bhp
    17% - 25% for more and these numbers are not even concrete as some drivetrains create more loss
    Where are you getting these numbers from? 25% for a stick?!?!?

    Im sorry, but 400bhp -17% driveline loss is well within tolerance.
    For an automatic maybe, but 17% equals 332hp which so far is the exception not the average which is 320 RWHP that would be 20% loss!

    Why would the CTS-V alone producing 20% loss when the GTO, Firebird, Camaro, Corvette LS1 and LS6, Viper and Mustang Cobra all with the same T56 tranny showing 15% or better?

    Keep in mind the courts ruled against ford for false advertising on 15 avg HP below advertised. We're talking more than twice that here. Ford had to go back and upgrade owners Cobras and give them partial refunds, same with the RX8 when it dynoed low.

    Either the marketing or mechanicals are wrong so somone should ask Caddy to explain.

    -Adam

  14. #59
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    Re: Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Cal
    The oil temp light went on during your pull? Didn't for me. That sounds like a problem...oil temp for me has not been a factor at all even during HEAVY driving at the track (minus my first laps). Strange.
    As an aside (mainly to Cal) I get oil temps >250degF weekly regardless of driving style (usually while sitting in traffic).

    -Ben

  15. #60
    Cal
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    Re: Why the PATHETIC rwhp ??

    I do get high oil temps also, but not high enough to set off the alarm. And I have had regular oil changes so I don't think fluid level is the problem.

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