Bolton Mods and cam only RWHP?

[peedeerooster]

For you guys that have done all the boltons, ie exhaust and cold air, that have added a cam. What kind of RWHP sae net did you get and which cam did you use. I ask this because this is the route I am taking with my CTS-V. Just trying to learn from you guys that have already been there. I am adding a Volant cold air intake with Kooks longtubes/offroad conection pipes and adding a cam swap with it. Just would like to get some other opinons on were I am headed with mine. Thanks in advance.

[AlmostAV]

Depending on your choice of cam youll be anywhere from 380-400 IMO.

btw I dont know about that volant....

[heavymetals]

A lot of cam info on LS1 tech.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/

[trukk]

PDR,

When I call you about the resonator we can discuss, but I am going the exact route you plan.

I have all the bolt-on's right now, less electric water pump, and Under Drive Harmonic Balancer. Depending on which local dyno I use (Both Mustang 1100 load bearing dybo's), I'm aeither at 378 or 355 rwhp

The cam I'm having installed (hopefully) next week is a custom grind:

224/228 .609”/.588” 111LSA +0 advance
Comp Cams XFI/XE-R lobes

This was spec'd by PatrickG over at LS1Tech. Him, Tony Mamo (from AFR), and my tuner (Jeff @ PSI) all think I should gain between 40 and 50 rwhp with this cam.

If you go absolutely MAX effort (all the top-shelf bolt-on mods, ported everything, etc.) and a donkey dick cam, you could see 450 rwhp with cam only, however it's not going to be much fun driving around on the street (something like an Texas Speed MS4 or Thunder Racing TREX.)

I have the following going in next week, to compliment the cam, and the other bolt-on's I already have.

- Yella Terra Ultralite 1.7" non adjustable rockers
- Cloyes Hex Adjust timing set (single chain)
- Comp Hardened push [COLOR=blue! important][COLOR=blue! important]rods[/color][/color] (7.425)
- Patriot Gold 'Extreme' springs with Ti retainers and Super 7 locks
- Melling high flow oil pump
- 42lbs flow matched lucas injectors
- all arp fasteners
- ATI 25% UD Harmonic Balancer

-Chris

[rangerrob]

Originally Posted by trukk

...The cam I'm having installed (hopefully) next week is a custom grind:

224/228 .609”/.588” 111LSA +0 advance
Comp Cams XFI/XE-R lobes

This was spec'd by PatrickG over at LS1Tech. Him, Tony Mamo (from AFR), and my tuner (Jeff @ PSI) all think I should gain between 40 and 50 rwhp with this cam.

If you go absolutely MAX effort (all the top-shelf bolt-on mods, ported everything, etc.) and a donkey dick cam, you could see 450 rwhp with cam only, however it's not going to be much fun driving around on the street (something like an Texas Speed MS4 or Thunder Racing TREX.)

I have the following going in next week, to compliment the cam, and the other bolt-on's I already have.

- Yella Terra Ultralite 1.7" non adjustable rockers
- Cloyes Hex Adjust timing set (single chain)
- Comp Hardened push [COLOR=blue! important][COLOR=blue! important]rods[/color][/color] (7.425)
- Patriot Gold 'Extreme' springs with Ti retainers and Super 7 locks
- Melling high flow oil pump
- 42lbs flow matched lucas injectors
- all arp fasteners
- ATI 25% UD Harmonic Balancer

-Chris

Trukk,

i also am looking into a cam in the near future, wit hall of the "accessory internal upgrades" that you have listed, are these highly recommended to go along with the cam? If so, do they assist in additional hp? roughly how much do those internals cost ballpark?

[trukk]

Originally Posted by rangerrob

Trukk,

Originally Posted by rangerrob

I also am looking into a cam in the near future, wit hall of the "accessory internal upgrades" that you have listed, are these highly recommended to go along with the cam? If so, do they assist in additional hp? roughly how much do those internals cost ballpark?

I'll break it down below. First thing to note, I'm definitely Type-A / Anal retentive, when it comes to mods for my car (lol who am I kidding, I'm like that in most things ). Some of the stuff that I've done is WAY Overkill, some is Buyers-Choice, and some is Must-Do. I spent a LOT of time reading up, and talking to people before I made my final decision on what to buy. Finally, my criteria included:
1) I only want to add stuff once, so I'd rather spend more now, than have to upgrade or replace later
2) This car is a Daily Driver, so reliability trumps price for me.
3) I take my car to the road course approximately 4 weekends a year. High RPM operation is a big consideration for me (see #2 )
With that in mind, here is a break down of what/why/how-much. Keep in mind that if you shop around, or contact one of our sponsors (TByrne is great to work with), you may be able to get a lower price, or a package deal. Prices and web links are for info only.
Lastly & Caveat: I'm just a guy on the Internet. Bellow is how I came to my component choices. I think I was pretty thorough, but this may not work for you, or some of my info may not be complete. DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK.

- Yella Terra Ultralite 1.7 ratio non adjustable rockers.
· Requirement: Buyers Choice. The stock rockers are know to hold up to a LOT of HP, and pretty good RPM's. Their only issue is they are little on the heavy side, and the needle bearings can come loose on occasion.
· Description: YT Ultra Lites are lighter than stock, and most importantly they are lighter at the end of the rocker, this making the Momentum of Inertia (MOI) less, which *should* make them more efficient than stock. Also they a 'quasi' shaft mounted. Each set of intake/exhaust valves is on it's own shaft. This makes the rockers more stable at higher RPM's. It also makes them a LOT less expensive than full on shaft mounted options. YT Ultra lites require no modification to the valve covers to fit. 1.7 ratio is the stock ration. They also offer 1.8
· Other Options: Stock. Harland Sharp modified stockers (they encase the needle bearing to protect against loosing them). Big Ticker rockers would be Comp Magnums or Jessel Sportsman ( about 1k each)
· Part Number: 6645
· Website: http://www.mphparts.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=MM&Product_Cod e=113-6645&Category_Code=GTOLS1VLV
· Cost: $419.99

- Cloyes Hex Adjust timing set (single chain)
· Requirement: Buyers Choice. At a bare minimum you will want to upgrade to an LS2 chain. I got the adjustable so I can degree my cam if necessary.
· Description: The Cloyes stuff is very nice. Probably overkill from a chain perspective. It offers infinite advance retard capability (not it 1 degree increments like most), and is fairly dummy proof to install, unlike a lot of adjustable timing sets. The chain itself is very high quality, and negates the need for a dual roller chain.
· Other Options: KaTech makes a great single chain as well, if you don't need adjustability. Double chains in my estimation aren’t worth the effort. You usually need to modify the timing cover, and have to run a stock (or less robust) oil pump, due to fitament. Not worth the effort, when great single chains are available from KaTech and Cloyes.
· Part Number: 3153A
· Website: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=clo-9-3153a
· Cost: $169.69

- Comp Hardened push rods (7.425)
· Requirement: Must-Do. Unless you are putting in a very low lift/ low ramp rate lobed cam, you will need better hardened push-rods. If you aren't getting a cam like that, then why are you even putting in a new cam?
· Description: The hardened chromoly pushrods flex less than stock, and provide a more stable and robust valve train, which equates to better higher RPM performance, and overall more reliability.
· Other Options: Not much. You don't need any thicker unless you are going REALLY big. if you are doing that you should be getting advice from your engine builder, and not just some guy on the internet
· Part Number: 7796-16
· Website: http://www.thunderracing.com/catalog/?action=vshop&vid=17&pcid=106
· Cost: 132.99

- Patriot Gold 'Extreme' Dual springs with Ti retainers and Super 7 locks
· Requirement: Must-Do. You don’t necessarily need these exact springs, but you should definitely get new springs with any new cam.
· Description: Valve springs are a wear item, and will eventually need to be replaced. Stock design is single beehives. The patriots are standard duals. Typical beehives are good up to .6" of cam lift, above that it's good to go with a dual sprint to handle the lift, and give the proper amount of seat pressure. While dual springs are a bit heavier (more MOI), than beehives, they also have 2 springs, so if one breaks, you still have the other, to hopefully get the valve out of the pistons way if you do have a failure. If a single breaks, the probability is very high that your engine is going to eat a valve, which is 'not good' . The Ti retainers cut down on weight over the stock retainers (less MOI). Finally the Super7 locks are higher quality than stock, and better than the ones that Texas Speed includes in their springs kits. NOTE: Texas Speed and patriot both use the same spring manufacturer, so the actual springs are the same, the only difference between the two is the associated hardware.
· Other Options: Stock ls6 yellows (only if you are going with a low lift cam though, approx .550 or less, and then what's the real point?). Comp 918's (they have had some quality issues in the past. Also would only consider if staying below .6" lift). PAC makes some very high quality beehive and doubles (even triples), but they along with the COMP 921's can get expensive ($400+ sometimes).
· Part Number: 198-8501
· Website: http://www.thunderracing.com/catalog/?action=shop&sid=815&pcid=109
· Cost: $279.99

[trukk]

~~CONTINUED~~

- Melling high flow oil Pump
· Requirement: Buyers Choice. If you have good oil pressure before the cam, you should be able to re-use your stock pump.
· Description: The Melling pump is a bit higher quality, and pumps 18% more oil than OEM.
· Other Options: LS2 OEM. SLP Modified OEM and Melling, are the main oil pump players.
· Part Number: 10296
· Website: http://www.byunspeed.com/product_inf...oducts_id=6642
· Cost: $139.95

- 42lbs flow matched Lucas injectors
· Requirement: Buyers Choice. At 380 rwhp my injector duty cycle (IDC) was at 92% at wide open throttle (WOT). While you can go over 100%, you start going lean at higher RPM/s WOT (Bad). If also lessens the injectors lifespan running them over 100%. With my cam I will be well over 100% IDC. You can get away without this for a while, but will probably eventually need to upgrade injectors
· Description: Stock injectors are 28.5 lbs/hr at 58 PSI fuel rail pressure. I went flow matched so I know that all the injectors are flowing what they are supposed to be. New Era gave me a nice spreadsheet of what each was actually flowing (within 1% of each other). You can then put the two 'fattest' injectors in #7 and #8 cylinders, since they tend to run the leanest based on the way the intakes work on our cars. Please note that these injectors are spec'd for an LS6 V, which has a different injector connection than an LS2 V. Also note that some injectors are spec's at 40 PSI fuel rail pressure, and some are at 58 PSI. LSX fuel rails run at 58 PSI, however you can use injectors spec's at 40. For example the ford motorsports red top 30# per hour are rated a40 PSI, so on our cars, they act more like a 36-38 lbs/hr injector when running at 58 PSI. I went with 42 Lbs/hr, as I don't foresee my car ever going over 500 rwhp (probably not anywhere near that but I wanted to be safe, see criteria #1 above )
· Other Options: Ford Red Tops. FAST makes injectors as well, however my tuner recommended I stay away from those.
· Part Number: ??
· Website: http://www.neweraperformanceparts.com/default.asp?S=503&A=E&PKV=c5l42fm|0
· Cost: $329.95

- All ARP fasteners
· Requirement: Overkill. With the exception of the Crank Bolt, which I would definitely do. GM crank bolt is torque to yield, which means you have to get a new GM bolt anyway. The ARP one is re-usable, and is just such higher quality than the OEM. I am a sucker for $10 - $30 parts, so spending $100 on bolts didn't really seem like a big deal.
· Description: I went with the following ARP Fasteners:
Edlebrock LS1 Rocker Arm Bolts (made by ARP): EDL-8597 $29.95 (shorter than normal to prevent flow obstruction)
ARP LS1 Harmonic Balancer Bolt: 234-2503 $26.24
ARP HP Series Cam Sprocket Bolt Kit: 134-1003 $8.88
ARP GENIII/LS Series Small Black Timing Cover Bolt Kit: $24.39
ARP GENIII/LS Cam retainer Bolts: 113-134-1002: $7.49
· Other Options:
· Part Number: (see description)
· Website:
http://www.thunderracing.com/catalog/?action=manufacturer&mid=15
http://www.lingenfelter.com/store/edl-8597.html
· Cost: See description

- ASP 25% UD Harmonic Balancer
· Requirement: Buyers Choice. This frees up 5 to 10 HP, and is pretty easy to do, when you are going through a cam install. I wouldn't do it unless I was also doing the cam.
· Description: The harmonic balancer on the crank shaft is 25% smaller than OEM, make it lighter (MOI), and spinning the accessories 25% slower, thus requiring less power to turn them. NOTE: This will require a smaller pulley belt. I have yet to receive definitive conformation on the size required. When I do, I'll post it up.
· Other Options: Retain OEM for free, or could do a 10% (doesn't seem worth the effort). make sure you buy one spec'd for a C5 corvette, as the F-body spec's ones won't fit our cars. ATI makes a balancer as well , but it is significantly more expensive, and I didn't see the value in it. ASP seems right on, there are cheaper ones (i.e. powerbond), but they just seemed 'cheaper'.
· Part Number: 941020
· Website: http://www.texas-speed.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=642&catid=16
· Cost: $245.99

- Cam Shaft
· Requirement: Must-Do (): I had the my cam custom spec'd by PatrickG over on LS1 Tech. I did this to try and best match my requirements. He takes into account a lot of variable and goals to come up with a recommendation.
· Description: Makes the valves open and close . There are a lot of options when considering a cam. How do you want it to perform (daily driver, street/strip, strip only/ max effort, road course), how do you want it to sound and idle (stock sounding, mild lope, medium lope, heavy lope/barley idles), etc. My main criteria where (in addition to my main criteria above) was good on the road course, and would I wouldn't need to replace valve springs every 20k - 30k miles (note this is a big reason I went with the higher spec Duel Extreme valve springs, which are rated up to .660 lift, even though my cam's max lift is .609.) Finally, I had Lingenfelter get Comp Cams to run the cam through their Adcole cam measurement machine after it was cut, to validate that what I ordered is what I got. The Adcole is much more accurate than a 'cam-doctor' machine. I will use this report in conjunction with the adjustable timing set, to make sure my cam is installed dead nuts.
· Other Options: There are a million and a half cam options out there. This is where you need to do your homework. I would recommend doing a lot of research, and even going down to your local speed shop to see/hear/ride in other cam'd cars to see what you like and don't like. After that get PatrickG to spec out a cam just for you.
· Part Number: N/A
· Website:
http://guerragroup.com/camshaft_help.htm

· Cost: Cam spec - $25.00. Custom grind + Adcole report $415.00

Miscellaneous Crap:
SDPC Cam Install Gasket Kit: KITSD51902: $61.95
ARP Assembly Lube: 100-9903: $6.95
COMP Cams Engine Assembly Lube 102: $8.99
Mobil 1 x 13 Qts: $50.00
Gallon of Distilled Water: $2.00
Gallon of DexCool: $20.00(??)

So what's the tally:
· Parts: $2370.44
· Dyno Tune: $500.00
· Install: $750 - $1250 (estimate).

So I expect my grand total on this to be approximately 4k. This will give me a car that is all ready to go for heads, when I decide to do them. It is also giving something very reliable, and should net great results.
Feedback welcome and appreciated

-Chris

[CTSV_Rob]

Awesome post trukk, will need to read this one tonight (no time at work).

[trukk]

Originally Posted by CTSV_Rob

Awesome post trukk, will need to read this one tonight (no time at work).

Dazzle-em with Bullsh!t. What I lack in quality, I make up for in quantitiy

-Chris

[Twitch]

Originally Posted by CTSV_Rob

Awesome post trukk, will need to read this one tonight (no time at work).

I think imma just have my lawyer explain it to me.

Trukk,
Any idea (ballpark numbers) what I would get out of a cam? I would replace the rods, or whatever needs to be done with a cam swap.
HP n $$$ please.
Its a daily driver, so nothing crazy.
Thanks

[heavymetals]

Check out the Comp Cams #1500 system.

I use that one

[trukk]

Originally Posted by Twitch

I think imma just have my lawyer explain it to me.

Trukk,
Any idea (ballpark numbers) what I would get out of a cam? I would replace the rods, or whatever needs to be done with a cam swap.
HP n $$$ please.
Its a daily driver, so nothing crazy.
Thanks

The cost for a cam can add up quick.

I'd think a bargain basement do-it yourself, re-use mostl stuff cost would be about $800.

Texas Speed camshaft kit (camshaft, springs, pushrods included): $699.
http://www.texas-speed.com/shop/item...d=175&catid=49

Gaskets, oil, misc (rent a pulley puller, etc.). With that though, you;d have to get a 'small' cam unless you want to pony up for a tune (another $500).

HP wise, you would see anywhere from 15 to 60 rwhp for a cam, and anywhere from 5 to 45 rwtq. The higher in num,ber you go the more supporting mods you'll need.

You end up getting what you pay for. In my mega post(s) above, I indicated that my cost is going to be a bit above $4k for all top shelf, max effort, installed and tuned by a pro.

-Chris

[AlmostAV]

trukk does it again!!!!
Nice info trukk - always stays on topic, and gives valuable researched info.
Thanks, great post.

[Twitch]

Cool, thanks.
Worth looking into. I have a Corvette shop not too far from me. When I'm ready, I'll go and have a talk with them.
Thanks guys

[The Tony Show]

Trukk is "The Man".

Just an FYI though- it looks like Tbyrne Motorsports has taken a permanent vacation. I found this out when I was trying to get a copy of my Corsa proof of purchase. Their web site is down and no one answers the phone.