Take off your "performance" intake. You'll thank me.

[lunarx]

Originally Posted by trukk

LOL, his loss is your gain man. Caveat Emptor.

It may not makes sense for him and his goals, and it may be all good for you.

Tony's a stand up guy. He could have just plopped his LPE in the classifieds, and never posted this thread, but he wanted to add to the forum, so he posted this. Big ups to him (I don't totaly agree with his assesment of the value of the LPE, but do respect his opinion.)

-Chris

Agreed, the LPE works, as that is what I have.
However, I have a custom intake tube (did not re-use stock tube).

I like the appearance of stock or Volant better, so I may change to one of those.

Anyone selling a Stock or Volant intake?

[The Tony Show]

Originally Posted by Twitch

DUDE, you bash the intake, then try to sell it to us????

What would you suggest- saying nothing and lying in my Classified ad about how great it is?

There's a lot of people who disagree with my opinion of the intake. If you think it's great, you can have it for a good price. There's also people building custom intakes who might want it for the filter and divider. One man's trash is another's treasure.

Thanks for the kind words, Trukk.

[JonCR96Z]

Originally Posted by trukk

Here's my thread about the Manifold /Tb swap:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...346-ls6-w.html

In a nutshell:

+9 peak rwhp
-3 peak rwtq
-9 average HP
-4 average TQ

I lost a fair amount under the curve (before after intersected at about 5500 RPM's). If this was all I was going to do, I'd be pissed, quite frankly. BUT, This was just me wrapping up the bolt-on's before moving on the Cam, then heads.

As for the Cost effectiveness of that particular mod, I spent approx 2k, for the TB, Manifold, Porting, Install and Dyno tune, so if I was going to step there, defintaley NOT a good investment.

I'm hoping to be in the 420ish range with my cam install, and then 460+(ish) (this might be a stretch) with premium heads. I don;t think I'd be able to get as high as I hope if I didn't go all out on the supporting mods. I guess we'll see. I'll definately post my results.

-Chris

I think you should be doing more that 420ish with the cam. Premium heads will help you up top but will mainly help your low rpm air speed. That is me assuming that you'll be doing AFR 205s and not 225s. I think you'll do 435-440 with stock heads. With AFR heads maybe 15-20 more up top and about 30-40 more under the curve.

Jon

[Twitch]

Originally Posted by The Tony Show

What would you suggest- saying nothing and lying in my Classified ad about how great it is?

There's a lot of people who disagree with my opinion of the intake. If you think it's great, you can have it for a good price. There's also people building custom intakes who might want it for the filter and divider. One man's trash is another's treasure.

Thanks for the kind words, Trukk.

Just bustin your chops. Already have one, but I'd rather buy it from someone like you than a guy telling me it'll give me 15hp.

[trukk]

Originally Posted by JonCR96Z

I think you should be doing more that 420ish with the cam. Premium heads will help you up top but will mainly help your low rpm air speed. That is me assuming that you'll be doing AFR 205s and not 225s. I think you'll do 435-440 with stock heads. With AFR heads maybe 15-20 more up top and about 30-40 more under the curve.

Jon

I'll let everyone know for sure. Who knows. Patrick G said he expected about 40ish HP with the cam he spec'd out. If it's more, I'll be happy. If it's less I won;t exactly be happy, but you never know how all the bits will interact with each other. If I hit 420, all is good.

As for the heads, I'm planning on AFR 205's, or maybe Trickflow 215's, or on the outside, some ETP's. Most probabaly the 205's since they are tried and true. I was expecting a bit more than 15-20 out of them, but who knows. Again, we'll see. Those won't be for a while though.

Originally Posted by CTSV_Rob

Great write up Chris and it all makes sense.

I would just like to point out that your list is for the LS6 and may not apply directly to the LS2 setup. Since our throttle body is already 90mm I think this would move it to the bottom of the list.

In order from most to least restricitve (LS2):

1. Intake tube
2. Filter
3. Airbox (Extra hole in the side)
4. MAF (Much smaller then my throttle body with a good size bar in the middle)
5. Manifold
6. Throttle Body

If they breathe better they usually go better but there are trade off's. Next Major mod planned is the Head and cams for me but I am still in the research phase. I am leaning toward the L92's (ported) with that new manifold that Ernie found plus a Cam. Not sure who to get the cam from at this point but I'm sure there are a lot of good companies that will do a reasonable grind.

my 0.02.

You were definately right about me specing for the LS6, Vice the LS2. I agree with part of your list. Swapping 2&3 sounds right. I don;t agree about the TB, Manifold and MAF though. For an LS2 I'd think it would be:

1. Intake tube
2. Filter
3. Airbox (Extra hole in the side)
4. Manifold (LS2 manifold doesn't flow as well as the LS6, even with a 90mm hole in it. They can be ported a bit, unline the LS6, but the consensus seems to be stock for stock the LS6 is better.)
5. Throttle Body. (Yes it's a 90mm, but it's still stock.
6. MAF (From everything I've read, even though it is 85mm, with a screen, the Delphi MAF flows very well, and doesn't seem to be much of a bottleneck at all. People seem to think it's much more advantageous to port a 90mm stock TB, or go with an aftermarket 90mm, before porting the Delphi 85mm. Seems a bit odd, but that's what I've read).

This has been a good thread, I think.

-Chris

[lunarx]

This is definetly good stuff.

So if:

Panel Filter is the 2nd largest intake restriction
and
paper filter outflows a K&N drop-in

Why would the aftermarket intakes not be a good idea?
Will their cone filters not outflow a panel filter?

I agree, LPE makes no sense with stock intake tube.

The Volant provides a new intake tube.
Where would the Volant intake tube land in the restriction department?

[ssmith100]

I'll post my 2 cents. I've got the LPE with a Volant intake tube and ...............I think my car ran better with the factory box. My low end torque really took a hit with the LPE and Volant tube. It looks pretty though.

Shane

[CTSV_Rob]

Originally Posted by trukk

You were definately right about me specing for the LS6, Vice the LS2. I agree with part of your list. Swapping 2&3 sounds right. I don;t agree about the TB, Manifold and MAF though. For an LS2 I'd think it would be:

1. Intake tube
2. Filter
3. Airbox (Extra hole in the side)
4. Manifold (LS2 manifold doesn't flow as well as the LS6, even with a 90mm hole in it. They can be ported a bit, unline the LS6, but the consensus seems to be stock for stock the LS6 is better.)
5. Throttle Body. (Yes it's a 90mm, but it's still stock.
6. MAF (From everything I've read, even though it is 85mm, with a screen, the Delphi MAF flows very well, and doesn't seem to be much of a bottleneck at all. People seem to think it's much more advantageous to port a 90mm stock TB, or go with an aftermarket 90mm, before porting the Delphi 85mm. Seems a bit odd, but that's what I've read).

This has been a good thread, I think.

-Chris

Good stuff Chris,

Sorry Tony for the Thread Jack...

4. I have done some research this morning and the only comparisions I could find between the 3 manifolds, LS2, LS6, and FAST were done on a LS1. Since the LS2 is redesigned I would assume that GM would have done their homework and the LS2 setup should work better with the LS2 but I have nothing to back this up.

Do you have any numbers comparing the 2? Not a big deal I'm just curious because in the end the intake is going anyways. It will either be the new Intake Ernie found (forgot the name of the company) or it will be the L76 manifold and either will be with the 90mm throttle body.

The restructure looks good to me, but I still think the MAF needs more attention then the TB but you are making me rethink that.

With what I was planning to do any TB or MAF modifications would be on the botttom and I wasn't planning on doing anything with them anyways. Now you have me wondering if I would get any gains from a different throttle body. The one in my car looks nice but I do see some room for improvement.

Just a quick list of what I am thinking about doing to my LS2:
- L92 Heads, ported with better valves and springs
- Mild Cam, still need to pass smog
- Intake to be either the L76 or the Weiand Street Warrior?
- Just need to get a 3.5 inch plastic tube and the Home grown FFV will be done. Tried it with the aluminum pipe and it got waaaay too hot, Sure I was loosing power.
- Injectors ???
- Throttle body ?? (wasn't planning on doing anything with it but now....)

So for Grins what would you recommend for,
Intake -

Throttle body (Port or replace) -

Injectors (Size and Make) -

Cam -

It seems like you have put a lot of thought into this build and I would greatly appreciate your input.

[Chef]

A picture is worth a thousand words....

[CTSV_Rob]

[trukk]

Originally Posted by ssmith100

I'll post my 2 cents. I've got the LPE with a Volant intake tube and ...............I think my car ran better with the factory box. My low end torque really took a hit with the LPE and Volant tube. It looks pretty though.

Shane

Shane,

I don;t really like that way that Volant tube has the extra bend in it, to clear the pyulley/radiator area. We already have enough bends in the intake tracts to 2 more. That's a big reason I went with the FFV. It's a straight show from the MAF/Filter to the single 90 Degree bend going to the TB.

-Chris

Originally Posted by CTSV_Rob

Good stuff Chris,

Sorry Tony for the Thread Jack...

Same here Tony. Also Rob, please keep in mind thaat I'm no means an expert at this stuff. I'm just posting my interpretation of what I've read on here and other sites. This is my first LSX based car, so please keep that in mind.

Originally Posted by CTSV_Rob

4. I have done some research this morning and the only comparisions I could find between the 3 manifolds, LS2, LS6, and FAST were done on a LS1. Since the LS2 is redesigned I would assume that GM would have done their homework and the LS2 setup should work better with the LS2 but I have nothing to back this up.

I certainly haven't heard of anyone putting an LS6 manifold on an LS2, that's for sure. On the flip side, you don't see a single person running an LS1 swapping in an LS2/90 onto their car vs a LS6/78. I don't think either compare to a FAST90 either (as long as you are gonna do at least boltons + a cam.)

Originally Posted by CTSV_Rob

Do you have any numbers comparing the 2? Not a big deal I'm just curious because in the end the intake is going anyways. It will either be the new Intake Ernie found (forgot the name of the company) or it will be the L76 manifold and either will be with the 90mm throttle body.

You LS2 guys are lucky in the fact that you can go with the L92 heads / L76 intake route. Since they won't work on a 3.9x bore, us LS6 guys are left off of that train. To be honest I'm not sure why Ernie with his 427 is waiting on that intake. It will be cool for a 346, not reving high. from what I read it falls off after 6000 rpms. For s smaller cubed lightly moded car, I bet it would add a lot. If you are going to do boltons and then heads/cam, I wouldn;t wait on that intake (unless you ahve the time). I wouldn;t want to be a guiniea pig for it either (let other go through the initial products mod hell first).

Originally Posted by CTSV_Rob

The restructure looks good to me, but I still think the MAF needs more attention then the TB but you are making me rethink that.

With what I was planning to do any TB or MAF modifications would be on the botttom and I wasn't planning on doing anything with them anyways. Now you have me wondering if I would get any gains from a different throttle body. The one in my car looks nice but I do see some room for improvement.

Keep in mind that by opeing up the intake you are slowing the velocity of the air going into the chambers, which will hurt your low end Tq. Unless you have the cubes and or heads/cam to take advantage of that extra air.

I still think the TB is a restriction before the MAF. On a side note, texas-speed is comming out with a 100MM MAF in the next few weeks. It will probabaly be a few hundred bucks. Since it's a new MAF, you re definately going to need a tune with it (the MAF table needs to be changed). You could go that route, but I bet it would be overkill on anything stock cubed.

Originally Posted by CTSV_Rob

Just a quick list of what I am thinking about doing to my LS2:
- L92 Heads, ported with better valves and springs

Since I don't have an LS2, and can't get the L92's I haven't done a lot of research on them. It seems like they are starting to make a lot of power, espscially now that companies are starting to port the snot out of them. From what I have read though, that head seems to be very CAM dependant, much moreso than the ls6 cathedral design. It seems to be pretty easy to pick a non optimal cam and get some non-optimal results. Do your homework here.

Originally Posted by CTSV_Rob

- Mild Cam, still need to pass smog

See above about the cam.

Originally Posted by CTSV_Rob

- Intake to be either the L76 or the Weiand Street Warrior?

I'd either go L76 or Fast90 if you are going stay with a cathedral head. Fast90 is proven, the other is not.

Originally Posted by CTSV_Rob

- Just need to get a 3.5 inch plastic tube and the Home grown FFV will be done. Tried it with the aluminum pipe and it got waaaay too hot, Sure I was loosing power.

I still have the aluminum tube. I haven't had a chance to swap mine out, or get it coated. I eventually will.

Originally Posted by CTSV_Rob

- Injectors ???

Like I said in an earlier post ( I think it was in this thread), at 380 rwhp, my Injector duty cycle was at 92%. While you can go over 100 for short bursts it's not really the best scenario. If it just every once in a while, no big deal. Since I run my car at the track and stay at high RPM's (+5000 most of the time) for most of the session, I am definately going to do something about the fueling when I do my cam. The options seem to be:

1. Bigger injectors. LSX injectors run at 58 Lbs/hr. Our stockers are 28 LBS/hr. Most people will do one of the following:
   • Run Lucas/Boch 42 lbers. This is good for a LOT of N/A HP. You're not gonna max these out with heads/cam or most strokers. I'm not sure but I think this might be an issue with the stock fuel pump.
   • Run Ford Racing 30 Lbs/hr SVO 'red tops'. These are rated at 30 lbs/hr for Fords, which run at a lower PSI than GM does. These are approx 36-38 lbs/hr at GM pressure. These are the ones I will probabaly go with.
2. Boosted stock fuel pump (stay w/ stock injectors). This is what Manuson does with their magnavolt. Kenne Bell also has a Boost-a-pump. Both of these send more current to the stock fuel pump to make it send more fuel. More pressure at the reails = more LBS/hr.
3. Higher flowing replacement fuel pump (stay w/ stock injectors). I haven't really looked into this. Most GM's have their fuel pump in the gas tank, so which a new fuel pump might only cost $200 bucks it's expensive to pull the tank off the car, to swap it out.

Originally Posted by CTSV_Rob

- Throttle body ?? (wasn't planning on doing anything with it but now....)

I'd concider at least getting you LS2 ported. Probabaly not worth the time/money to go with an aftermarket.

Originally Posted by CTSV_Rob

So for Grins what would you recommend for,
Intake -

Throttle body (Port or replace) -

Injectors (Size and Make) -

Cam -

It seems like you have put a lot of thought into this build and I would greatly appreciate your input.

My #1 recommendation is do your homework, and research. Everyone and their mom thinks they know what's right for you and your car. In reality, you are the only one that does. The hard part is determinging why people recommend a certain product or approach, and if that fits with your goals, and how you plan to use the car.

Good luck, and please share what you decide, and your progress.

-Chris

[Naf]

I put on a 100mm (lingenfelter makes this MAF as well) intake on my previous vehicle and tuned her properly and i actually got gains across the board. My air restriction was reduced thus MORE air rushed in rather then havin more air velocity. You will then have to watch for heat. I wrapped my air tube sprayed my TB and heat guard to reduce radiant heat absorbance.

Your Stock tune isnt made for any changes in the air flow...If you change any aspect it will go into SAFE mod and flood in the fuel. Thus the poppin...MSD coils are a quick fix for that. Plus additional Earthing/Groundin really helps with low end torque...AH you all didnt see this mod did ya...

Quick fixes dont help, if you are going to change ANY aspect of airflow you have to tune and tune properly for your conditions...

[JonCR96Z]

Originally Posted by trukk

you don't see a single person running an LS1 swapping in an LS2/90 onto their car vs a LS6/78

LS6 outflows the LS2 in stock form. LS1 guys would have to spend a bunch of money getting an LS2 on the car then it would need to be ported to see any gains. You could get a FAST for roughly the same price.

Originally Posted by trukk

I'd either go L76 or Fast90 if you are going stay with a cathedral head. Fast90 is proven, the other is not.

FAST is working on a rectangle port version as we speak.

Originally Posted by trukk

I'd concider at least getting you LS2 ported. Probabaly not worth the time/money to go with an aftermarket.

Ported LS2 flows as good as any aftermarket unit, and is easier to tune and cheaper to boot.

Originally Posted by trukk

Most GM's have their fuel pump in the gas tank, so which a new fuel pump might only cost $200 bucks it's expensive to pull the tank off the car, to swap it out.

The secret to that is to leave the tank in place and make a trap door above the pump. I'll tell you how it works out when I get to it.



Jon

[trukk]

Originally Posted by JonCR96Z

LS6 outflows the LS2 in stock form. LS1 guys would have to spend a bunch of money getting an LS2 on the car then it would need to be ported to see any gains. You could get a FAST for roughly the same price.




FAST is working on a rectangle port version as we speak.




Ported LS2 flows as good as any aftermarket unit, and is easier to tune and cheaper to boot.




The secret to that is to leave the tank in place and make a trap door above the pump. I'll tell you how it works out when I get to it.



Jon

Now that we've thoroughly jacked Tony's thread, What do you think the cross-over point is when you will actually need a better fuel pump, vs. just getting bigger injectors? I don't want to go with a magnavlot or a boosta-pump, as I think that will be a serious reliability issue.

If I go SVO erd tops, will I be good up to about 450ish rwhp w/o upgrading the fuel pump or rails?

-Chris

[JonCR96Z]

Tony who? Hey, there's only so far you can go with taking off your "performance" intake.

Anyway, back on topic. A voltage booster is a good thing. The ones that are available may not be though. I've contacted Racetronix inquiring about a CTSV specific hotwire kit, I'll let you know what I find out. You should be fine (for now) with the setup that you mentioned. At most you just change the pump whenever you do heads. Consensus seems to be 450-500 rwhp for the stock corvette systems, not sure the difference between us and them.

Jon