Take off your "performance" intake. You'll thank me.

[JimmyH]

Originally Posted by JBCTSV

Guys,
I disagree with the K&N does not work theory. I have used the filters and cold air on various GM V8's and I have never had a torque loss or power loss due to the cold air induction or filter. Every car I have has a filter and they yield better mileage and with exhaust and/or headers I have always had a performance increase.
Did you remove your cats? I think a performance tune is definitely in order.

Just my $.02

it is really easy to rationalize one of these filters when you just dropped $100 on one.


The only advantage the K&N has is that it maintains more airflow than a paper one as it gets dirty.

Numbers dont lie. New paper filter>K&N. I wish I could find that damn test, but CR does not have it on their website anymore.

[Nutz]

It is my experience that an engine will make noticeable horsepower from an external source only due to extreme pressures or temperature changes. Fuel pressure or air pressure (forced induction) mostly. The motor does not feel "help" being "offered" externally (such as a filter) unless it is a force that is stronger than it's natural ability to rotate. An intake threshold point of entry (throttle location) is generally going to have a stable cfm reading regardless of whats going on before it (it's almost inevitable in order for the Block Learn Multipliers to be effective). In the 80's every owner of a Grand National gutted the headlight bucket for a "ram air" tube, or bought a lower front spoiler that had a scoop much like that of the 69 olds 442 (dryer vent hose) system under the bumper. Now after hooking up laptops with very sensitive software reading the o2 sensor, it has proven a waste to have a "ram air" kit on a car. Now you are hard pressed to see anything mounted on the front of one. Think about it... a car travelling 80 m.p.h. only has an 80 m.p.h. headwind push, hardly helpful in a system that is creating a vortex somewhere in the neighborhood of 900 cfm. It is no doubt fun to hear the engine responding through a open system though. But the stoich mixture is going to be unstable when it is exposed to an air system that is sensitive to air changes, causing the computer to constanlty adjust. I realize the V is not a forced intake car also, but I believe the same theory applies.


My too scents...

[type911]

I think the majority of problems is tuning. Nothing against stealthV. If I was closer I would love to have them do the tune on My car. However people do these Mail order tunes when every car is different. You can datalog and mail back and forth but that seams like such a PIA. If you add some Bolt-ons or FI and go with a MO tune you are asking for trouble unless you spend the time datalogging and finetuning through the mail. I would rather have my tune done on a dyno and have it specifically written for my App. Every car is different because of factory tolerances alone. I cant tell you how many mail order tunes cause driveability issues because there app may be slightly different than the original.

[Scatillac]

While the stock air box may be adequate for a stock displacement engine with little or no modifications, it's woefully inadequate for a larger engine (any 400+ cid).

With my car (LS7) under full throttle on a chassis dyno, the stock intake tube has a very noticeable deformation (collapse) while the same tube with the LPE air filter exhibits less than 1/8" deformation.

If you tinker around with cars much, you'll find that an infrared/laser heat sensor gun is very handy and can tell you all sorts of things.

Drive your V around a bit to warm it up to operating temperature, but more importantly, raising the underhood temperature to normal conditions. Then, if you'll take an infrared temp reading of the respective assemblies, the one thing that's readily apparent is the high temperature of the MAF housing, which is where your IAT sensor lives. Guess what has more of an impact on your fuel mixture? Use heat shielding tape here? You bet!

With the LPE unit, there are two areas that can pass engine compartment air, the first is where the baffle meets the inside of the fender and the second is the underside of the hood in the area just forward of where the LPE gasket meets the upper radiator baffle. A bit of dark gray foam fixes both nicely.

Finally, it's all about the details of your individual vehicle. If you have any biker buddies, how many of them have put on pipes and not rejetted and then complained about loss of performance or rideability issues? It's the same principal here. You may or may not have to have your car retuned, depending on your vehicle and your particular climate.

[The Tony Show]

Originally Posted by nutzabout_v

the stoich mixture is going to be unstable when it is exposed to an air system that is sensitive to air changes, causing the computer to constanlty adjust.

Exactly. I've stated before (when arguing about air intakes) that one of the best reasons to keep the stock airbox is that it acts like a "regulator"- that is, it ensures the incoming air is always a similar temperature and amount. While this may be a higher temperature and lower amount than a cone style filter, I appreciate the consistency of the engine performance at any speed or temperature.

A cone intake is worthless to me if the car only drives well when the temperature is low, my speed is above 55, there's a 1/4 moon and Mercury is obscured by Venus. A mod that causes the car to buck and backfire when I let off the throttle every time the weather changes is a crappy mod- I'll take my 4 fewer horsepower in return for a consistent level of performance and driving behavior.

[TaVern]

Interesting thread, Tony. I've got the Lingenfelter on my car and experience the same effect. I had no idea it could be eliminated with the stock air box on...

Thanks for the info.

[trukk]

The issue with this thread, is that everyone is basically right.

An LPE CAI makes sense only in certain situations. If you are going to do a lot of mods to the car, then you will eventually need to upgrade that part of the intake tract. For people with only a few bolt-on's it doesn't make much of a difference, and untill you get the thing settled in (it took my about 6 months, to figure out the exact best way to have my LPE CAI positioned and installed, so I wouldn't have leaks), it's going to be a PITA.

So whadya need to make the car go faster? Fuel, Air and Spark. In this case we are obviously talking about air. Now does adding more air necesarily make your car go faster? Not in all situations. It will usually help in the higher RPM's but the lower velocity of the air at lower RPM's which hurts the tourque.

With that said. Take a look at our intake tract:

• Airbox
• Filter
• Maf
• Intake tube
• Throltle body
• Manifold

If you want to increase the flow here, you start with the most restrictive and work your way up. Now, I haven't flow tested these parts, so my order will be my best guess (feel free to chime in if you have another opinion here.) In order from most to least restricitve:

1. Intake tube
2. Airbox
3. Filter
4. Throttle Body
5. Manifold
6. MAF

When Rick first designed and released his FFV, why do you think he went with a replacement Intake tube? That thing is definately restrictive. So for all you folks that have put in LPE CAI's (or the K&N's or Volants), and haven't replaced your intake tube, about the only thing you've done, is make the car look good (in your opinion), sound different, and added another bit that requires maintenance and monitoring. This is in line with what Tony has said.

One of my first mods was an LPE CAI. Aside from the sound, and a slight increase in the butt dyno (as Luna has stated a bunch, butt dyno registers most from a thinner wallet under your @ss), it didn't show much in the way of gains. I have a dyno thread on this mod here. Results were:
.....Peak Gain:
.....+8.9 RWHP 3% Gain (295.5 @6150 vs. 304.4 @6350)
.....+2.8 RWTQ 1% Gain (285.2 @4900 vs. 288.0 @4850)

.....Baseline made more HP up to about 4600, where newer run surpasses it
.....Baseline made more TQ up to about 4400, where newer run surpasses it

.....It would appear from the graph, that I gained up high, but lost more down low.

About 6 months later I swpped in a Ported Throttle body. I didn't dyno the change, but I felt absolutely nothing in the Butt dyno. about 6 months after that I swapped out the intake tube, and couldn't believe the difference. Again I didn't dyno that change, but you could really feel the difference. By changing out the most resprictive piece in the intake tract, it allowed me to get cumulative gains from my other changes (LPE & TB).

At this point, I've replaced everything in my intake tract except the MAF. Now keep in mind that you aren't going to see total gains from these mods, unless you also open up the breathing of the combustion chamber with cam & heads mods. Of course you'll also need to open up the exhaust too, with headers, free flowing cats (or none), and a free flowing cat back (although the stocker flows pretty well).

Anyway, it's not just one mod here one mod there, it's how you plan the mods, and make them all work together as one system.

My $0.02. Happy Modding.

-Chris

P.S. In reference to Tony's popping issue with the LPE. I've never had that with mine. I'd expect it was either an unseen airleak, or a tune issue. Airleaks are hard to track down unless you have a smoke machine.

[crankedupforit]

Chris
With an 18% loss to the rear wheels your engine would dyno at the fly wheel at 460HP. I forgot what your numbers were before when you were running the Katech ported TB. In any case, I think the numbers you are putting up are pretty amazing, especially on a Mustang dyno. $ for $ it's a cost effective project with little warranty impact. I agree with your premise that finding the right combination of bolt on mods is the key to a CAI's value. Your approach was dead on. BTW how satisfied are you with the newest mods (intake and TB)? What was your overall gain?

[trukk]

Originally Posted by crankedupforit

Chris
With an 18% loss to the rear wheels your engine would dyno at the fly wheel at 460HP. I forgot what your numbers were before when you were running the Katech ported TB. In any case, I think the numbers you are putting up are pretty amazing, especially on a Mustang dyno. $ for $ it's a cost effective project with little warranty impact. I agree with your premise that finding the right combination of bolt on mods is the key to a CAI's value. Your approach was dead on. BTW how satisfied are you with the newest mods (intake and TB)? What was your overall gain?

Here's my thread about the Manifold /Tb swap:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...346-ls6-w.html

In a nutshell:

+9 peak rwhp
-3 peak rwtq
-9 average HP
-4 average TQ

I lost a fair amount under the curve (before after intersected at about 5500 RPM's). If this was all I was going to do, I'd be pissed, quite frankly. BUT, This was just me wrapping up the bolt-on's before moving on the Cam, then heads.

As for the Cost effectiveness of that particular mod, I spent approx 2k, for the TB, Manifold, Porting, Install and Dyno tune, so if I was going to step there, defintaley NOT a good investment.

I'm hoping to be in the 420ish range with my cam install, and then 460+(ish) (this might be a stretch) with premium heads. I don;t think I'd be able to get as high as I hope if I didn't go all out on the supporting mods. I guess we'll see. I'll definately post my results.

-Chris

[JBCTSV]

Well said and researched. Thanks guys. You guys are not helping with my "Mod Fever"

[Twitch]

DUDE, you bash the intake, then try to sell it to us????

[trukk]

Originally Posted by Twitch

DUDE, you bash the intake, then try to sell it to us????

LOL, his loss is your gain man. Caveat Emptor.

It may not makes sense for him and his goals, and it may be all good for you.

Tony's a stand up guy. He could have just plopped his LPE in the classifieds, and never posted this thread, but he wanted to add to the forum, so he posted this. Big ups to him (I don't totaly agree with his assesment of the value of the LPE, but do respect his opinion.)

-Chris

[CTSV_Rob]

Originally Posted by trukk

The issue with this thread, is that everyone is basically right.

An LPE CAI makes sense only in certain situations. If you are going to do a lot of mods to the car, then you will eventually need to upgrade that part of the intake tract. For people with only a few bolt-on's it doesn't make much of a difference, and untill you get the thing settled in (it took my about 6 months, to figure out the exact best way to have my LPE CAI positioned and installed, so I wouldn't have leaks), it's going to be a PITA.

So whadya need to make the car go faster? Fuel, Air and Spark. In this case we are obviously talking about air. Now does adding more air necesarily make your car go faster? Not in all situations. It will usually help in the higher RPM's but the lower velocity of the air at lower RPM's which hurts the tourque.

With that said. Take a look at our intake tract:

• Airbox
• Filter
• Maf
• Intake tube
• Throltle body
• Manifold

If you want to increase the flow here, you start with the most restrictive and work your way up. Now, I haven't flow tested these parts, so my order will be my best guess (feel free to chime in if you have another opinion here.) In order from most to least restricitve:

1. Intake tube
2. Airbox
3. Filter
4. Throttle Body
5. Manifold
6. MAF

When Rick first designed and released his FFV, why do you think he went with a replacement Intake tube? That thing is definately restrictive. So for all you folks that have put in LPE CAI's (or the K&N's or Volants), and haven't replaced your intake tube, about the only thing you've done, is make the car look good (in your opinion), sound different, and added another bit that requires maintenance and monitoring. This is in line with what Tony has said.

One of my first mods was an LPE CAI. Aside from the sound, and a slight increase in the butt dyno (as Luna has stated a bunch, butt dyno registers most from a thinner wallet under your @ss), it didn't show much in the way of gains. I have a dyno thread on this mod here. Results were:
.....Peak Gain:
.....+8.9 RWHP 3% Gain (295.5 @6150 vs. 304.4 @6350)
.....+2.8 RWTQ 1% Gain (285.2 @4900 vs. 288.0 @4850)

.....Baseline made more HP up to about 4600, where newer run surpasses it
.....Baseline made more TQ up to about 4400, where newer run surpasses it

.....It would appear from the graph, that I gained up high, but lost more down low.

About 6 months later I swpped in a Ported Throttle body. I didn't dyno the change, but I felt absolutely nothing in the Butt dyno. about 6 months after that I swapped out the intake tube, and couldn't believe the difference. Again I didn't dyno that change, but you could really feel the difference. By changing out the most resprictive piece in the intake tract, it allowed me to get cumulative gains from my other changes (LPE & TB).

At this point, I've replaced everything in my intake tract except the MAF. Now keep in mind that you aren't going to see total gains from these mods, unless you also open up the breathing of the combustion chamber with cam & heads mods. Of course you'll also need to open up the exhaust too, with headers, free flowing cats (or none), and a free flowing cat back (although the stocker flows pretty well).

Anyway, it's not just one mod here one mod there, it's how you plan the mods, and make them all work together as one system.

My $0.02. Happy Modding.

-Chris

P.S. In reference to Tony's popping issue with the LPE. I've never had that with mine. I'd expect it was either an unseen airleak, or a tune issue. Airleaks are hard to track down unless you have a smoke machine.

Great write up Chris and it all makes sense.

I would just like to point out that your list is for the LS6 and may not apply directly to the LS2 setup. Since our throttle body is already 90mm I think this would move it to the bottom of the list.

In order from most to least restricitve (LS2):

1. Intake tube
2. Filter
3. Airbox (Extra hole in the side)
4. MAF (Much smaller then my throttle body with a good size bar in the middle)
5. Manifold
6. Throttle Body

If they breathe better they usually go better but there are trade off's. Next Major mod planned is the Head and cams for me but I am still in the research phase. I am leaning toward the L92's (ported) with that new manifold that Ernie found plus a Cam. Not sure who to get the cam from at this point but I'm sure there are a lot of good companies that will do a reasonable grind.

my 0.02.

[Twitch]

Originally Posted by trukk

LOL, his loss is your gain man. Caveat Emptor.

It may not makes sense for him and his goals, and it may be all good for you.

Tony's a stand up guy. He could have just plopped his LPE in the classifieds, and never posted this thread, but he wanted to add to the forum, so he posted this. Big ups to him (I don't totaly agree with his assesment of the value of the LPE, but do respect his opinion.)

-Chris

I hear ya,,,I'd buy it if I didn't already have one.

Bad timing, cuz I just got the parts to build my "custom intake tube" today.
Not expecting much. But if it sounds a bit louder, I'll be happy.
PS Thinking about a cam down the road. I'll be looking for your post-up when you get yours.

[CTSV_Rob]

Originally Posted by Twitch

I hear ya,,,I'd buy it if I didn't already have one.

Bad timing, cuz I just got the parts to build my "custom intake tube" today.
Not expecting much. But if it sounds a bit louder, I'll be happy.
PS Thinking about a cam down the road. I'll be looking for your post-up when you get yours.

So did you go with a plastic pipe or an aluminum pipe?