Death of my V? Opinions?
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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V General Discussion Discussion, Death of my V? Opinions? in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Sad story, cover your eyes, but need some opinions. Bought my '04 V about 2 years ago for 17k (no ...
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    TERP V's Avatar
    TERP V is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Death of my V? Opinions?

    Sad story, cover your eyes, but need some opinions.

    Bought my '04 V about 2 years ago for 17k (no engine mods) and enjoyed it greatly till Saturday evening. Got on the highway and just settled into 6th at about 75 when there was a metallic ratcheting type sound from the motor, looked down in time to see I had like 45 psi oil pressure then it died. On the shoulder I looked for any obvious problems, couldn't find any. Motor had oil, wasn't overheating. Tried to start and still had the metallic ratcheting. Tow truck time.

    My mechanic called, said they tried to start it and motor is seized up, telling me I need a new motor. I asked if the timing chain let go or valve spring broke or something? Apparently they didn't investigate further, just decided "new motor." I'm thinking of getting it back from these guys and trying to investigate myself.

    In the mean time, quick searches seem to show LS6's going for around 6k new. ugg. Don't particularly want to put a new motor in, but the only used I found was also 6k, but did include trans and was a complete package.

    Believe me I'm all for breaking it is upgrade time, but the wallet can't handle too much. What are my options other than a new LS6 if it comes to that? LS2? LS3 seems to cost about the same, makes more power... I've seen all the LS#'s thrown about, but again cost IS a factor, and a complicated conversion/install is over my head I imagine... Also throwing major upgraded horsepower at my whiny rear diff worries me as well.

    Saw an interesting remanufacturer called ProMar Precision Engines in NJ that offers an LS6 long block package for 3K (with 3 year unlimited mileage warranty), but I assume they wouldn't want my core, so not sure what the upcharge would be...

    Sadly welcoming opinions...

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    darkman's Avatar
    darkman is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    Re: Death of my V? Opinions?

    I think you may have broken a timing chain and now the mechanic has spun the motor enough to really jam it up. Even if my guess is wrong, there are a number things the could "seize" the motor that are repairable. I would investigate the condition of the motor a little further before I pronounced it dead.

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    FuzzyLogic is offline Banned
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    Re: Death of my V? Opinions?

    If the motor wasn't a write-off before it died on the road, it sounds like your attempt to start it and (I suspect) the abuse that the mechanic probably layered onto it guarantees that the block is toast.

    With luck, you might be able to salvage your heads and most (if not all) of your accessories. If you found a stock LS6 shortblock, you might be able to rebuild the engine in a couple of days for about $2000.

    If your need is less immediate, I will be upgrading to a 416 CID LS3 and will be putting my upgraded LS2 on the market in the $4000 range.

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    AAIIIC's Avatar
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    Re: Death of my V? Opinions?

    The LS6 was discontinued back in 2009ish, and I had to search for a couple of months to find a new one back in 2011, so I'm curious where you're finding a new one for $6k.

    I concur with darkman that you owe yourself some more investigation before deciding to throw in the towel.

    Part of me wishes that I had gone the LS3 route when I replaced my dead LS6, as I could have easily afforded to do so. There are so many different options out there from all sorts of vendors that it's kind of overwhelming, so I just kept it simple and stuck with a new LS6 long block from GM.
    '05 Stealth Grey CTS-V, Hyper Silver Linea Corse Venetos w/Continental ExtremeContact DWs (summer), black Team Dynamics ProRace 1.2 wheels with 275/35-18 R-compounds (track), Hyperblack Rota Torques (winter), KW Variant3s, V2 front brakes, Hotchkis rear sway bar, EPS cam, TEA-ported 243 heads, FAST92 intake w/LS2 TB, JBA Camaro/G8 1-3/4" shorty headers w/JBA cat pipes, Corsa exhaust, UUC motor and tranny mounts, UUC shifter, MAPerformance trailing arms, Specter cradle bushings, etc...

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    H-town_V's Avatar
    H-town_V is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    [/COLOR]Couldn't you just buy a junkyard ls1 fairly cheep and swap over all the necessary ls6 parts that are still good.

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    HAMSTAR is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Death of my V? Opinions?

    Talk to a good LS mechanic. Give Jeff Lowry at PSI at call. He's scrappy and will bring your motor back from the dead if it can be done without costing too much.

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    Bacon V's Avatar
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    Where are you located? There's a LS2/T56 combo with 78k miles from a gto on craigslist here locally. You could deal on the motor and ship it. I think he's asking 6k, but it's been on a while. You could sell one of the transmissions on top for 1200 i would think

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    TERP V's Avatar
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    Re: Death of my V? Opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by darkman View Post
    I would investigate the condition of the motor a little further before I pronounced it dead.
    Yes, agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    If your need is less immediate, I will be upgrading to a 416 CID LS3 and will be putting my upgraded LS2 on the market in the $4000 range.
    No, not immediate. This is interesting, whats your timetable?

    Quote Originally Posted by AAIIIC View Post
    There are so many different options out there from all sorts of vendors that it's kind of overwhelming
    Thats for sure!

    Quote Originally Posted by HAMSTAR View Post
    Give Jeff Lowry at PSI at call.
    Thanks, that is only about an hour from me. Anyone ever deal with Tony's Corvette in Gaithersburg, MD? I've heard they are good and are also close.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon V View Post
    Where are you located? There's a LS2/T56 combo with 78k miles from a gto on craigslist here locally. You could deal on the motor and ship it. I think he's asking 6k, but it's been on a while. You could sell one of the transmissions on top for 1200 i would think
    Near Frederick, MD. That sounds like one I saw on Ebay. Funny, I clicked on watch the item yesterday, and when I look back today its like $600 higher. Hmmm...

    Couldn't you just buy a junkyard ls1 fairly cheep and swap over all the necessary ls6 parts that are still good.
    Well, that is pretty much the meat of my question. Could I? You hear the "hey throw this or that in" but with my lack of expertise I'm trying to figure out what is really feasible. When it gets down to the nuts/bolts, does a LS1 just drop in nice and easy? LS2 I assume would, since its in the 05-07? LS3? With something other than LS6 are my costs going way up due to new computers/etc or are they plug & play? Is this all just simple for an experienced mechanic?

    Thanks for all the quick responses guys.

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    HAMSTAR is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Death of my V? Opinions?

    Never dealt with them, but I have heard complaints about their tunes. It's hearsay, though. I have to tell you I've never run into a mechanic as resourceful as Jeff, and as honest with clients money. The guy charged me a quarter hour once for a job that books for an hour, just because he's fast and honest. Honestly, don't go anywhere else. I'll PM you his email.

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    Re: Death of my V? Opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by TERP V View Post
    Well, that is pretty much the meat of my question. Could I? You hear the "hey throw this or that in" but with my lack of expertise I'm trying to figure out what is really feasible. When it gets down to the nuts/bolts, does a LS1 just drop in nice and easy?
    You could put your heads, cam and intake manifold in/on an LS1 short block and basically make an LS6. There are some improvements to the LS6 block relative to the LS1, but for a daily driver it wouldn't really matter. The LS6 H/C/I are significantly better than the LS1 bits, so you would need to swap that stuff over or you'd take a pretty big hit in performance (and would need to retune the ECU).

    Quote Originally Posted by TERP V View Post
    LS2 I assume would, since its in the 05-07?
    The LS2 is actually just 06/07, but whatever. It's not a straight swap, as the LS6 is a Gen III engine and the LS2 is Gen IV, which means there are some differences in the cam and crank triggering and a couple other electrical things.

    Quote Originally Posted by TERP V View Post
    LS3? With something other than LS6 are my costs going way up due to new computers/etc or are they plug & play?
    Here's a pretty good summary of what it takes to put an LS3 into an LS6 car. I think that all of that would apply to an LS2 as well; someone will correct if I'm wrong, I'm sure.
    '05 Stealth Grey CTS-V, Hyper Silver Linea Corse Venetos w/Continental ExtremeContact DWs (summer), black Team Dynamics ProRace 1.2 wheels with 275/35-18 R-compounds (track), Hyperblack Rota Torques (winter), KW Variant3s, V2 front brakes, Hotchkis rear sway bar, EPS cam, TEA-ported 243 heads, FAST92 intake w/LS2 TB, JBA Camaro/G8 1-3/4" shorty headers w/JBA cat pipes, Corsa exhaust, UUC motor and tranny mounts, UUC shifter, MAPerformance trailing arms, Specter cradle bushings, etc...

  12. #11
    robojesus is offline Banned
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    Re: Death of my V? Opinions?

    Terp, the LS1 shortblock would work fine. Depending on what exactly is broken on your motor, It could very easily be a fairly cheap repair. If there was oil, and you were at lower RPM, I sincerely doubt it's a rod or main bearing. Was your A/C on during when it seized? I've seen A/C compressors seize up and the motor was unable to turn over because of the seizure (to the point that a garage pulled a northstar out of a 99 deville). I'd start by pulling your a/c drive belt off and examining that. proof i am not lying btw/ at a low enough RPM, (assuming 700-2000), the compressor can definitely stop your engine.

    The LS2 and LS6 have different reluctor wheels. You will need to replace that if you go LS2. You would also need a tune for the different cam duration and increased displacement of the LS2.

    Personally, if I'm you, I pull the A/C drive belt off and try cranking it over. If nothing, I pull the serpentine belt off and do the same thing.

    After that, if it's not turning over, I pull the valve covers off and put a square over the springs, make sure none of them are stuck down (showing that they are bent). If they are, then you need to pull the heads and make sure there's no damage to your pistons. You can get a set of 243 heads very reasonably priced.

    I cannot envision a scenario in which an LS6 is completely destroyed, barring a hole in a block from a broken crank/rod etc. Especially cannot see a motor just "seizing up" in 6th with 45 psi of readable oil pressure.

    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by AAIIIC View Post
    You could put your heads, cam and intake manifold in/on an LS1 short block and basically make an LS6. There are some improvements to the LS6 block relative to the LS1, but for a daily driver it wouldn't really matter. The LS6 H/C/I are significantly better than the LS1 bits, so you would need to swap that stuff over or you'd take a pretty big hit in performance (and would need to retune the ECU).


    The LS2 is actually just 06/07, but whatever. It's not a straight swap, as the LS6 is a Gen III engine and the LS2 is Gen IV, which means there are some differences in the cam and crank triggering and a couple other electrical things.


    Here's a pretty good summary of what it takes to put an LS3 into an LS6 car. I think that all of that would apply to an LS2 as well; someone will correct if I'm wrong, I'm sure.
    you pretty much beat me to it. the reluctor wheel is among the biggest (24x vs 58x, iirc)

    the LS3 swap is pretty much MAF/MAP/CrankPS (and I think cam ps is the same - could be wrong)

    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by AAIIIC View Post
    You could put your heads, cam and intake manifold in/on an LS1 short block and basically make an LS6. There are some improvements to the LS6 block relative to the LS1, but for a daily driver it wouldn't really matter. The LS6 H/C/I are significantly better than the LS1 bits, so you would need to swap that stuff over or you'd take a pretty big hit in performance (and would need to retune the ECU).


    The LS2 is actually just 06/07, but whatever. It's not a straight swap, as the LS6 is a Gen III engine and the LS2 is Gen IV, which means there are some differences in the cam and crank triggering and a couple other electrical things.


    Here's a pretty good summary of what it takes to put an LS3 into an LS6 car. I think that all of that would apply to an LS2 as well; someone will correct if I'm wrong, I'm sure.
    you pretty much beat me to it. the reluctor wheel is among the biggest (24x vs 58x, iirc)

    the LS3 swap is pretty much MAF/MAP/CrankPS (and I think cam ps is the same - could be wrong)
    HAMSTAR and HAMSTAR like this.

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    HAMSTAR is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Death of my V? Opinions?

    Just found out Jeff re-opened his shop, which had burned down in a fire. This number goes to his cell phone: 410-766-7PSI Best thing to do is to email him, though, and I sent you his email address.

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    TERP V's Avatar
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    Re: Death of my V? Opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by robojesus View Post
    I cannot envision a scenario in which an LS6 is completely destroyed, barring a hole in a block from a broken crank/rod etc.[COLOR="Silver"]
    And there we have it. The guys that have the car took a closer look today, and sure enough its clearly visible that a rod has apparently attempted escape through the bottom of the block and nearly succeeded.

    Thanks for all the detailed answers and links above, I need to catch my breath and take it all in before I decide what to do. Luckily its not a daily driver. This whole work thing sure gets in the way too.

    Hamstar - Thanks for Jeff's number/email, I'm sure he'll be on my contact list. Sucks his shop burned down, too bad my car wasnt in there when it did

    FuzzyLogic - do you know when you'll be upgrading? Mileage/mods on your LS6?

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    FuzzyLogic is offline Banned
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    Re: Death of my V? Opinions?

    Sorry to hear about your motor, Terp. Getting the motor swap done on my V keeps getting pushed back due to the difficulty in coordinating a 3 day weekend and a location where I can have the motor shipped to and do the swap. Having someone that's interested in taking this motor off my hands (or even doing the swap simultaneously) would make the logistics vastly easier.

    The LS2 motor has 28,000 miles. 422 RWHP/383 RWTQ on a Mustang dyno with a TRuTorq L3 cam. Cam and Comp 26926 dual springs / Trunnion upgrade / hardened 7.425" Comp pushrods have about 6,000 miles on them. Would like to include the alternator, oil pump, water pump, fuel injectors, and professionally ported LS2 intake manifold (LS2 Port Works) with the motor. I have extra K&N and Lingenfelter intake tubes if you still have your old one. You can also grab the tune if you have HP Tuners or want to take your car for a tune at Slowhawk, where they'll be managing the initial startup and tune of the LS3 (I'll have to rent a trailer).

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    johnashleyv is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Death of my V? Opinions?

    Terp, I hate to say this but I wish this would happen to me, haha. Im looking for a excuse to get a new motor and the one I want does cost right around the $6,000 mark. Look up a company called Wegner Motorsports out of Wisconsin. Otherwise call West Bend Dyno tuning. That motor with your motor as a core will get you to where you may want to be and will put you at about 600hp to the crank. This is what my plan is but need to motor to go first cuz the other half thinks that is to expensive right now haah

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