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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V General Discussion Discussion, time to do some maintenance i have a week off of work! in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; heat resistance is more important than brake bias, in my opinion, when evaluating brake pads. to me, a "better" pad ...
  1. #16
    repenttokyo is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: time to do some maintenance i have a week off of work!

    heat resistance is more important than brake bias, in my opinion, when evaluating brake pads. to me, a "better" pad is the one that bites on lap 15 like it did on lap 2. front pads need to fade more than rear pads, because of the heat generated. running a more aggressive pad on the front is not folk wisdom, it's physics in action.

  2. #17
    kevm14 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: time to do some maintenance i have a week off of work!

    Right, and if you aren't in the ABS, then it would be exactly as you said. But I did find it interesting that adding a big front brake kit can lengthen stopping distance:
    http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...formance.shtml

    It's not exactly the same, but it's very similar. With pads that work very well when hot, you have more brake torque on the front. Remember, too, that a pad compound that DOES work when hot, will also be capable of turning kinetic energy into heat at a MUCH higher pace than some pads that just glazed over. So those more aggressive pads can create the heat you installed them to combat. I just like things to be optimized, even if I never reach the limit of traction of the front tires.

    Like I said, I'd be very curious about temps. Even with 75% braking by the front on track tires during the heaviest braking (on stock suspension, so it dives like stock), I think the rear might be warmer than you think. Or I'm wrong. I'd be curious to see. What I do know is that if the stock Brembo pads have the same compound front and rear, and the stock setup is a little front biased (to add a safety-related conservatism), then ESPECIALLY if you were tracking with stock-type tires and stock suspension (everything would weight transfer like stock) then it would follow that the same F and R pad compound would give you stock-like performance. And I'd also ASSUME that doesn't mean smoking front rotors and sort-of-warm rear rotors. But there is a saying about assumptions...so I could be wrong here. I'd also be pretty disappointed. "Stock" sounds unimpressive, but it's a pretty damn nice setup, if you ask me. I wouldn't just assume it's compromise-city under there.

  3. #18
    repenttokyo is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: time to do some maintenance i have a week off of work!

    my track car actually doesn't have ABS.

    i don't follow your statement that putting more aggressive pads front and rear would give you stock-like performance. are you talking about all cars in general or just the Cadillac? you lost me there.

    also, have you ever driven on the track and experienced brake fade? i think there's a disconnect between what we are each talking about. i didn't change the pads on my track car so that it would necessarily stop "better" than stock, although it does. I changed the pads on my track car so that I could drive it at 9/10ths for more than one lap before brake fade completely eliminated my ability to stop.

    with pads that work well when hot, you have a guarantee that you will be able to predictably use braking zones across a greater number of laps. that's very important.

  4. #19
    kevm14 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: time to do some maintenance i have a week off of work!

    Stock like bias, meaning slightly frontward. That's what I meant by performance.

    I just think if you now have an ability to pound the brakes longer, the rears are, necessarily, also taking more of a beating, and you'd want to upgrade them for the same reason, even if the FRONTS are what drove you to the upgrade. To be clear, I don't disagree about your choice to upgrade the fronts! But since you can be on the brakes harder, for longer, the rears are now heating up more than they were before you had to let the FRONTS cool. Admittedly, rear fade on 25% of heavy braking isn't nearly as concerning as front fade. Hopefully that made sense.

  5. #20
    repenttokyo is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: time to do some maintenance i have a week off of work!

    Quote Originally Posted by kevm14 View Post
    Stock like bias, meaning slightly frontward. That's what I meant by performance.

    I just think if you now have an ability to pound the brakes longer, the rears are, necessarily, also taking more of a beating, and you'd want to upgrade them for the same reason, even if the FRONTS are what drove you to the upgrade. To be clear, I don't disagree about your choice to upgrade the fronts! But since you can be on the brakes harder, for longer, the rears are now heating up more than they were before you had to let the FRONTS cool. Admittedly, rear fade on 25% of heavy braking isn't nearly as concerning as front fade. Hopefully that made sense.
    if the fronts are seeing 75 percent of the heat, and the rears are seeing 25 percent, it is not as important to upgrade the rears. i upgrade the rears on my track car, but not to the same degree, because I don't need as much fade/heat resistance.

    i'm not using brake pads to affect my brake bias. it's for heat management and predictable braking.

  6. #21
    kevm14 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: time to do some maintenance i have a week off of work!

    But upgrading the fronts allows you to use the brake pedal harder, more often, and longer. Which means the rears are now running warmer with a front pad upgrade. Which means you'd want to treat them to the same upgrade so everything is still even (in terms of temps). If the rears are actually being run above their recommended temp range, you could actually end up increasing front pad life if you also upgrade the rears in kind. Which brings it back to brake bias, incidentally.

    And my point with brake bias is you'd be adding front bias, beyond that which was already presumably designed into the car, which is undesirable if you are locking up the fronts. If you are not, then you can ignore that portion of my argument.

    I would also concede that if you are satisfied with your threshold braking performance AND your brake pad wear characteristics, I guess most of what I say would be purely academic. But that doesn't mean they couldn't be improved.

  7. #22
    repenttokyo is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: time to do some maintenance i have a week off of work!

    Quote Originally Posted by kevm14 View Post
    But upgrading the fronts allows you to use the brake pedal harder, more often, and longer. Which means the rears are now running warmer with a front pad upgrade. Which means you'd want to treat them to the same upgrade so everything is still even (in terms of temps). If the rears are actually being run above their recommended temp range, you could actually end up increasing front pad life if you also upgrade the rears in kind. Which brings it back to brake bias, incidentally.

    And my point with brake bias is you'd be adding front bias, beyond that which was already presumably designed into the car, which is undesirable if you are locking up the fronts. If you are not, then you can ignore that portion of my argument.

    I would also concede that if you are satisfied with your threshold braking performance AND your brake pad wear characteristics, I guess most of what I say would be purely academic. But that doesn't mean they couldn't be improved.
    i never lock the brakes on the track unless i've made a mistake....and the rears don't need the same upgrade as they are not running the same temps as the front, nor are they operating above their recommended temp range. they need a pad that matches their operating temperature, just as the fronts need one that matches theirs. and these temps are not the same.....there's no "evening out" to do here, because the pads are not doing the same work.

  8. #23
    kevm14 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: time to do some maintenance i have a week off of work!

    Agreed, front and rear temps are probably not the same, and front is probably higher. But rear temps will elevate when you upgrade the fronts. I know this because you said fade kept you back and after the upgrade, you can push harder, longer. As the brake pedal operates the front AND rears simultaneously, that means the rears also run hotter now. Which means they MAY end up operating out of their temp zone. Like I said, this is pretty much academic at this point. I'm sure you're happy with your car's performance.

  9. #24
    repenttokyo is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: time to do some maintenance i have a week off of work!

    Quote Originally Posted by kevm14 View Post
    Agreed, front and rear temps are probably not the same, and front is probably higher. But rear temps will elevate when you upgrade the fronts. I know this because you said fade kept you back and after the upgrade, you can push harder, longer. As the brake pedal operates the front AND rears simultaneously, that means the rears also run hotter now. Which means they MAY end up operating out of their temp zone. Like I said, this is pretty much academic at this point. I'm sure you're happy with your car's performance.
    i understand what you are saying, but the rears are upgraded too on my car, just not to the same level as the fronts, because the temps are not the same at all.

    if i was a professional competitor, then yes, I would probably have the best possible pads for each situation and track I was on and the budget to determine what those would be, front and rear. But practically, for the lapping that I do - which is not in my Cadillac - the fronts work harder than the rears, heat up faster, and do most of the stopping, and therefore require a better compound.

  10. #25
    your maker is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: time to do some maintenance i have a week off of work!

    ok guys i need to know which wires set i should go with. two of my old stock wires broke on me trying to pull them from the plug

    which set the firecore from Gfoce

    magnacore 8.5 wires from

    or these http://www.abcdirectautoparts.com/au...ac&model=CTS+V

    or order stock OEM ones

  11. #26
    CancerJCC is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: time to do some maintenance i have a week off of work!

    I'm running stock.

  12. #27
    kevm14 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: time to do some maintenance i have a week off of work!

    My wires are stock/original at 106k. Are you sure you even need wires? They aren't required as part of a tuneup. I also pulled the stock plugs and replaced them with stock at around 100k. They looked fine, too.

  13. #28
    your maker is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: time to do some maintenance i have a week off of work!

    ya i need wires as they broke trying to pull them from the plug

  14. #29
    kevm14 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: time to do some maintenance i have a week off of work!

    Yeah I pulled one of my wires partially through the boot and was able to get it back inline. Nothing actually "broke" per se. So yeah I guess you need new wires. I'd go with stock unless they're like twice the price of a good aftermarket set.

  15. #30
    your maker is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: time to do some maintenance i have a week off of work!

    well for the same money i can get the firecore form Gforce so looks like those are the winners. i do believe darkman has those on his

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