Damn! High Oil Temp and alarms? Here is a fix for it (page 7 post #98). - Page 13
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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V General Discussion Discussion, Damn! High Oil Temp and alarms? Here is a fix for it (page 7 post #98). in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; It is not the ground for the temp sensor that is affected, but the ground reference. It makes sense if ...
  1. #181
    heavymetals's Avatar
    heavymetals is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    Re: Fluctuating oil temp

    It is not the ground for the temp sensor that is affected, but the ground reference.

    It makes sense if you know anything about low level signal testing and telemetry.

    This problem is particularly found in single ended measurements vs differential (no ground reference).

    (I happen to be a telemetry "expert" and I got paid BIG BUCKS to solve problems like this before I retired).

  2. #182
    Cobraguy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Fluctuating oil temp

    Quote Originally Posted by heavymetals View Post
    It is not the ground for the temp sensor that is affected, but the ground reference that the PCM uses.

    It makes sense if you know anything about low level signal testing and telemetry.

    This problem is particularly found in single ended measurements vs differential (no ground reference).

    (I happen to be a telemetry "expert" and I got paid BIG BUCKS to solve problems like this before I retired).
    I'm sorry...but you are incorrect. A 2005 CTS-V does NOT send the oil temp signal to the ECM. It goes directly to the instrument cluster. Now, a V6 CTS does indeed send that signal to the ECM. But not the LS6. The engineers did not want to see the ECM reducing performance of the LS6 due to elevated oil temps. It's considered a performance vehicle and they left that up to the driver to deal with...not the ECM. The ECM does indeed see oil pressure and oil level in the LS6...but the oil temp is a gauge only.

    GM did finally come out with a repair they consider a fix. Please note where they have you fasten the new ground. This is a major vehicle ground used by the cluster, among others.







    Subject: Engine Oil Temperature Reads High Or Improper Display Of Warning Message - keywords DIC display gauge IPC #PIC4508A - (10/30/2007)



    Models: 2004- 2005 Cadillac CTS-V




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This PI was superseded to update model years. Please discard PIC4508.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.

    Condition/Concern:
    Some customers may comment the engine oil temperature rises very quickly and remains high when they are not driving on long hills or performing aggressive maneuvers. In some cases the Oil Temperature Warning Message is displayed.

    Recommendation/Instructions:
    If the Engine Oil Temperature Indicator is always on, follow Engine Oil Temperature Indicator Always On (5.7L) Document ID# 1541697. If the oil temperature seems to rise quickly and remain high, install a redundant ground for the Engine Oil Level/ Temperature Sensor to the Instrument Panel Cluster ground G200 using the following instructions:

    Splice a new length of .35 AWG wire into circuit 1550 (BK) near the Engine Oil Level/ Temperature using procedures in Splicing Copper Wire Using Splice Clips Document ID# 303646.
    Run the wire under the Engine Harness protective sheath following the harness over to, and through the Wiring Harness Pass-through Grommet into the passenger compartment on the driver side.
    Attach the end of the redundant ground wire to G200 behind the left kick pad using suitable eyelet terminal.
    Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.

  3. #183
    darkman's Avatar
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    Re: Fluctuating oil temp

    See attached.

  4. #184
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    Re: Fluctuating oil temp

    "install a redundant ground for the Engine Oil Level/ Temperature Sensor to the Instrument Panel Cluster ground G200"

    "Redundant ground"

    I am right, BAD GROUNDING causes a voltage offset.

    I erred on what part of the sensor goes to the PCM (temp does not, level does).

    The main battery ground is the biggest culprit.

    If you don't think so, take a DVM and go measure the voltage drops (like I did).

    I fixed the problem by fixing the grounds, not by adding another one.


    Furthermore, the GM "fix" does not correct the main ground cable offset.

    All it does is connect the grounds to chassis through a big "ground loop" that are now all offset by the main cable ground mounting bolt to battery negative.

  5. #185
    Cobraguy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Damn! High Oil Temp and alarms? Here is a fix for it (page 7 post #98).

    You know, I have to apologize for sounding condescending. That was wrong of me.

    However, in this case, it's not as simple as you make it out to be. Keep in mind the first attempt was a software upload that broadened and changed the limits that were interpreted. This was done clear back in 2004 or 2005. Since this is so sensitive a measurement, the age of the vehicle comes into play. The fix you advocate is just not practical. It's not just a connection, it's the entire resistance measurement of the ground circuit. If you trace that circuit, it's a nightmare to get to everything. Nobody is going to pay $2000 in labor to rip out a wiring harness and repair and replace everything needed. This is so sensitive a measurement that a voltage drop measurement may not be able to tell you what you need. What this repair is doing is running a ground directly to the cluster ground. The circuit originally grounds through the back of the passenger side head, chassis, etc. This eliminates part of that circuit and allows the cluster to properly read the voltage on the circuit. I applaud GM for coming out with such an affordable fix that should work for a long time.

  6. #186
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    Re: Damn! High Oil Temp and alarms? Here is a fix for it (page 7 post #98).

    It wasn't condescending, it was insulting and I edited it out.

    That's what happens when you insult a mod.

    As for the software "fix", GM figured that it could correct the problem by raising the overall offset, which is not a fixed value (the offset) as it changes with the amount of load drawn through the junction of the main ground, air conditioning and lights being the big draw.

    Adding a redundant ground, does not "fix" the bad junction between the negative ground bolt and the battery cable, it only masks it and creates a big ground loop.

    Also, aluminum is a funky conductor.

    I did trace the circuit.

  7. #187
    Lord Cadillac is offline Cadillac Maniac
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    Re: Damn! High Oil Temp and alarms? Here is a fix for it (page 7 post #98).

    So what do we have to do to clear this up? I'm guessing there's only one way to appropriately fix the problem. Which way is it? Maybe we'll never know until somebody gives the fix a shot. Please leave personal insults off the table...

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  8. #188
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    Re: Damn! High Oil Temp and alarms? Here is a fix for it (page 7 post #98).

    I don't mind a technical discussion, but I won't tolerate insults.

    I have explained how and why the "fix" that I found does work.

    Furthermore there are plenty here that tried it.

    Obviously, the GM fix works also, but it does not fix the bad primary ground.

    I expect that will be addressed in another bulletin.

  9. #189
    kevm14 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Damn! High Oil Temp and alarms? Here is a fix for it (page 7 post #98).

    I can add a data point. Not long after a bought the car (over a year ago) I did the star washer mod to the ground cable next to the hood strut. I wasn't having any problems at the time but I prefer preemptive maintenance. Back when I was combing over the car to benefit from the end of my CPO warranty, I also found some bare wires in the oil level sensor harness and I believe the dealer spliced in a new pigtail. There were no over temp alarms at this point, but that plug HAS been replaced, so it may be a contributor to my continuing good luck.

    Sometime later, when I was doing plugs, I cleaned up the ground at the back of the passenger side head. I still wasn't having any problems.

    Finally, I drove the wheels off this car last weekend, including the Dragon, and the highest temps I saw were around 280F, which I believe was probably not too far off reality.

    If the ECM doesn't use oil temp, does that mean the OLM calculates oil temp, instead?

  10. #190
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    Re: Damn! High Oil Temp and alarms? Here is a fix for it (page 7 post #98).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobraguy View Post
    The fix you advocate is just not practical. It's not just a connection, it's the entire resistance measurement of the ground circuit. If you trace that circuit, it's a nightmare to get to everything. Nobody is going to pay $2000 in labor to rip out a wiring harness and repair and replace everything needed.
    I'm not sure what you fix you think heavymetals is advocating, but the fix I think he's advocating is cleaning up a couple of pretty easily accessible ground points in the engine bay. It doesn't cost $2000, it costs about 27 cents (for a few star washers) and maybe 15min of your time. And it works (or at least helps).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobraguy View Post
    What this repair is doing is running a ground directly to the cluster ground. The circuit originally grounds through the back of the passenger side head, chassis, etc. This eliminates part of that circuit and allows the cluster to properly read the voltage on the circuit. I applaud GM for coming out with such an affordable fix that should work for a long time.
    I have that "fix". It helped a little bit, but it certainly is not the final answer. Before the additional ground was installed, my oil temp would jump 45-50F instantly when I turned on the A/C. With the additional ground installed, it would only jump about half that much. With a few grounds cleaned up in the engine bay, it only jumps 5 or 6F.

  11. #191
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    Re: Damn! High Oil Temp and alarms? Here is a fix for it (page 7 post #98).

    The bulletin being quoted was released in 2007 to correct a condition where the temp reading was "pegged".

    The reason was a bad ground (INT or NO GROUND).

    The cause was probably a bad connection at the crimp in the connector but whatever.

    Reed has pointed out, as you have, that his car exhibited this exact problem and he had the dealer fix it, which they did, and I presume by the bulletin.

    I stand by my "fix" that the bad connection at the primary ground is the cause for FLUCTUATING TEMPERATURE readings.

    Outright failure, ie "pegging" the meter is the result of NO GROUND.

  12. #192
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    Re: Damn! High Oil Temp and alarms? Here is a fix for it (page 7 post #98).

    Ok guys... You may want to listent to heavy on this one... I have done this with him on my car and it solved my problem. Its not hearsay- its personal.

    You can do 1 of two things..

    1. Work around the problem by following GMs suggestion and adding another ground to solve the SYMPTOM of the issue (hgith readings)
    2. Fix the root cause of the problem by cleaning the EXISTING grounds on the back of the heads in in the front of the engine compartment.

    There was a TSB that reprogrammed the temp sensor int he guage cluster but that, as well, was a workaround. I have an email into some poeple at gm (one of whom designed the electrical system on the V) to get some addl clarification on a few ideas, but the bottom line is:

    #1 is a workaround. #2 fixes the the problem and any others that might arise from a bad ground (hard starting, other temps bad, etc)...

    I know heavy well, and HE KNOWS what he is talking about.

    Reed

  13. #193
    RoverGuy7 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Damn! High Oil Temp and alarms? Here is a fix for it (page 7 post #98).

    so i have previously cleaned the ground point, both back of bank 2 head, and main chasis under hood prop, and a couple other randoms i saw that were easy to access, readings got better, but after a long drive temps would still raise. so back to square one i went, did a volt drop on the ground from back of the head to battery -, over half a volt, in the cable, a couple hundredths across the bolt at the hood prop. so i ran a couple new grounds with some spare 8ga wire. went from front of bank2 head to under the hood prop and back of bank 1 head to a extra bolt hole under the master cyl. after i cleaned off some paint. anyway, this has worked well, im aware its not really a fix for the issue, and i didnt check, but with the possibility of the ground cable being part of the engine harness, i figured just work around the issue. now heres my problem... how can i make my oil temps a little higher? after 45 minutes of pretty hard driving, never got above 200*. anyone have an idea about how to get my oil up another 15-20 degrees under normal driving???

  14. #194
    kevm14 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Damn! High Oil Temp and alarms? Here is a fix for it (page 7 post #98).

    Try cruising in one or two gears lower than you normally would. That might do it.

  15. #195
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    Re: Damn! High Oil Temp and alarms? Here is a fix for it (page 7 post #98).

    If you had the software "fix" done, that might be the reason.



    Quote Originally Posted by RoverGuy7 View Post
    so i have previously cleaned the ground point, both back of bank 2 head, and main chasis under hood prop, and a couple other randoms i saw that were easy to access, readings got better, but after a long drive temps would still raise. so back to square one i went, did a volt drop on the ground from back of the head to battery -, over half a volt, in the cable, a couple hundredths across the bolt at the hood prop. so i ran a couple new grounds with some spare 8ga wire. went from front of bank2 head to under the hood prop and back of bank 1 head to a extra bolt hole under the master cyl. after i cleaned off some paint. anyway, this has worked well, im aware its not really a fix for the issue, and i didnt check, but with the possibility of the ground cable being part of the engine harness, i figured just work around the issue. now heres my problem... how can i make my oil temps a little higher? after 45 minutes of pretty hard driving, never got above 200*. anyone have an idea about how to get my oil up another 15-20 degrees under normal driving???

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