My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?
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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V General Discussion Discussion, My Rx8 Had no wheel hop? in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; I was thinking about the wheel hop issue this morning and Cadillac's responses thus far. Sure, this isn't a drag ...
  1. #1
    wildwhl's Avatar
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    Unhappy My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    I was thinking about the wheel hop issue this morning and Cadillac's responses thus far. Sure, this isn't a drag car, but due to the wheel hop it also does not live up to Cadillac's advertised performance specs.

    I had two Rx8's one Mazda repurchased and the other was a loaner car for a period where the first car had a problem. The repurchase, as most of you know, was for misadvertising/horsepower claims. However, the RX8 ultimately DID meet the performance numbers advertised in the hands of the owners. This required 8,000 rpm side stepping of the clutch. I tried this, multiple times in both cars (hey, they weren't really mine anyway) and NEVER had wheel hop. Remind you that the 8 is a $30K car.

    Now, I'm not comparing the two other than to state the if the Rx8 can be built with a great ride, great handling, and no wheel hop - why can't the CTS/V. The more I think about it, the more I think we should collectively place pressure on GMPD to resolve this issue for us. I'm betting that the '05's don't see the same amount of this problem...

    Thoughts (flame suit on)?

    Wildwhl

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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Uhh...

    Simple answer: 395lbs of TQ compared to 159lbs of TQ! Enough said .
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    Cal
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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    I will let you all know how the FG2 affects wheel hop...or doesn't. Dealer says it should be in tomorrow. Installation maybe next week some time.

    I haven't hit it hard with the Michelins to see if that helps, either.

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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Quote Originally Posted by miscreant
    Uhh...

    Simple answer: 395lbs of TQ compared to 159lbs of TQ! Enough said .
    Sorry, Miscreant, but I don't think that answers this issue. I don't care if it is 100lbs of TQ or 1,000 - the tire/wheel is spinning having exceeded it's traction potential and laying a patch of rubber in either case. I don't think the amount of HP or TQ validates or dismisses the wheel hop issue. It is an engineering design flaw, is it not?

    Has anyone here managed a sub 5 second 0-60 run - Gtech or otherwise? That's not really where my concern lies, but instead during autoX type driving when I have pitched the rear end out through a corner and I have experienced the wheel hop. Not fun...

    I'm just a little surprised that CTS/V owners (myself included to some extent) are willing to accept this without explanation from GMPD. If the car was designed to achieve the advertised numbers - why doesn't the production car actually manage it. Feathering the clutch? I don't think so, I've tried it without success (but I'm sure that clutch will be pricey to replace!).

    Furthermore, rumor mill and aftermarket are adding HP to this car...how will it ever get to the ground?

    Wildwhl

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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Quote Originally Posted by miscreant
    Uhh...

    Simple answer: 395lbs of TQ compared to 159lbs of TQ! Enough said .

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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Quote Originally Posted by TNT V
    OK, so two people blame/point towards the torque...can you EXPLAIN this answer so that I may understand?

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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    WhildWHL,
    Not trying to flame, but if you are that upset (and it sounds like you are) why dont you sell the car right now? You can probably get pretty good money for it because every dealer is marking it up.
    You had to know there was wheel hop before buying it because of all the reviews, so you could have purchased an RX8 if you wanted to and saved 20k.

    This is not an excuse for wheel hop, I do agree that it is a problem. I am just being patient to see if the 05s fix it and then I will apply that fix to my car. I am able to launch from the line without hopping (side slipping the clutch) and this car is AWESOME cause it it handles while hauling butt.

    Why such hostility?

    Reed

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    Cal
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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Suspension is supposed to be the fix, at least according to Mallet. However I am positive you can get a system similar to his with the bushings etc. without dropping 6 large.


    As someone else posted (as a link to a BMW forum) the M5 has/had wheel hop too. It's a problem with high-HP luxury cars that are manual (AMG benzes don't have the problem, but they are 2-3x the cost). I am positive GMPD or someone will come out with the appropriate kit. Rome wasn't built in a day, as they say. Lots of cars have similar growing pains when they are trying to milk very high performance from a new product.

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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildwhl
    Sorry, Miscreant, but I don't think that answers this issue. I don't care if it is 100lbs of TQ or 1,000 - the tire/wheel is spinning having exceeded it's traction potential and laying a patch of rubber in either case. I don't think the amount of HP or TQ validates or dismisses the wheel hop issue. It is an engineering design flaw, is it not?

    Has anyone here managed a sub 5 second 0-60 run - Gtech or otherwise? That's not really where my concern lies, but instead during autoX type driving when I have pitched the rear end out through a corner and I have experienced the wheel hop. Not fun...

    I'm just a little surprised that CTS/V owners (myself included to some extent) are willing to accept this without explanation from GMPD. If the car was designed to achieve the advertised numbers - why doesn't the production car actually manage it. Feathering the clutch? I don't think so, I've tried it without success (but I'm sure that clutch will be pricey to replace!).

    Furthermore, rumor mill and aftermarket are adding HP to this car...how will it ever get to the ground?

    Wildwhl
    My post in no way was blaming ALL of the wheel hop issue on torque. But that is the MAIN problem why you have the wheel hop, and I don't think it's even close to an effective comparison between the RX8 and the CTS-V. The Torque numbers are SUBSTANTIALLY different. "[T]he tire/wheel is spinning having exceeded it's traction potential and laying a patch of rubber in either case..." - but in the case of the CTS-V, it's got a TREMENDOUS amount of additional torque PREVENTING the tires from sinching back up. It doesn't make sense to say that a tire breaking free with 159lbs (less to the rw) of tq is the same as a tire breaking free at 300+lbs of torque.

    But, yes, there is *inherent* rear wheel hop, BUT...And I've posted this before, the Runflats are part of the problem as well! Always have been. There were several custom CTS-Vs at the CTS-V driving school in Dallas when I went and they featured non-runflats and exibited VERY LITTLE wheel hop at all. They were runnign 245/45 and 275/45 tires respecfully (front to back), in non-runflat.

    What's funny is this is an issue with MANY cars. Some custom M3s with increased TQ (and even stock M3s in certain situations) will produce wheel hop. Corvetter suffers from. IFS in general suffers from it. Car's twice the CTS-V's price with IFS suffer from it. But the CTS-V happens to suffer most because of the combination of super-high TQ, runflats, and IFS...All combine to cause a hop problem.
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    Cal
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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    I am taking the car up north tomorrow to have some tint work fixed up. I'll test it out with the Michelins and let you guys know. I've had the tires for almost a week just never gotten on it in the low gears on a straight. Mostly high speed antics.

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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrbadss
    WhildWHL,
    Not trying to flame, but if you are that upset (and it sounds like you are) why dont you sell the car right now? You can probably get pretty good money for it because every dealer is marking it up.
    You had to know there was wheel hop before buying it because of all the reviews, so you could have purchased an RX8 if you wanted to and saved 20k.

    This is not an excuse for wheel hop, I do agree that it is a problem. I am just being patient to see if the 05s fix it and then I will apply that fix to my car. I am able to launch from the line without hopping (side slipping the clutch) and this car is AWESOME cause it it handles while hauling butt.

    Why such hostility?

    Reed
    Reed -

    I'm sorry, there is no hostility, and no, I do not wish to sell the car. I do in fact love my V and think it is an awesome machine. I'm just trying to understand exactly how each of us can address/cure the wheel hop problem in the meantime. Remember, I already owned an RX8 and that car has plenty of issues as well - hence the reason I no longer have one. The V is in reality superior.

    As usual, email/type written posts have sent the wrong message. My original post is meant to create discussion in this area with the intent being to find a collective solution, as well as hear what other opinions are. I wonder if the wheel hop is as severe from vehicle to vehicle, or is more isolated with some of our vehicles. I am also hoping to hear on how others FEEL about the situation, meaning is everyone simply OK with it, or does anyone (like me) feel that GM has some responsibility here.

    Yes, you can slip the clutch to some extent, and I'm sure many of you out there are better at it than I am. Has anyone managed a great launch doing so just yet? I've seen some pretty promising 1/4 mile times (Clintonwmills to name one) and personally know how quick and amusing this car is to drive. However, how long/often can that clutch be slipped before grenading or polishing itself into oblivion? Is it up to the abuse?

    Thanks for the input and help in trying to assist my sleepless (2 mo. old infant) brain understand the cause and effect relationship of wheel hop.

    Bill

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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    "but in the case of the CTS-V, it's got a TREMENDOUS amount of additional torque PREVENTING the tires from sinching back up. It doesn't make sense to say that a tire breaking free with 159lbs (less to the rw) of tq is the same as a tire breaking free at 300+lbs of torque."

    OK, this makes some sense to me - the vehicle is simply capable of spinning the wheels longer - I'm with you here...

    "But, yes, there is *inherent* rear wheel hop, BUT...And I've posted this before, the Runflats are part of the problem as well! Always have been. There were several custom CTS-Vs at the CTS-V driving school in Dallas when I went and they featured non-runflats and exibited VERY LITTLE wheel hop at all. They were running 245/45 and 275/45 tires respecfully (front to back), in non-runflat."

    On what size wheels and what brand tires - do you know? I can already tell that these runflats won't last forever

    "What's funny is this is an issue with MANY cars. Some custom M3s with increased TQ (and even stock M3s in certain situations) will produce wheel hop. Corvetter suffers from. IFS in general suffers from it. Car's twice the CTS-V's price with IFS suffer from it. But the CTS-V happens to suffer most because of the combination of super-high TQ, runflats, and IFS...All combine to cause a hop problem."

    Yes, I know, but these are our cars and each of us simply wants to make them as good as possible so that those M3's, M5's, and AMG's don't smoke us when the opportunites are presented

    You know, the worst part about a forum like this is simply that it is evidence that each of us are in our offices and not out enjoying our cars like we should be...but at least the quick responses to this post indicate that the forum members are definately very alive and protective of the status of our "V". What a great car, in a great country, for a great price.

    Bill

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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildwhl
    On what size wheels and what brand tires - do you know? I can already tell that these runflats won't last forever
    I could almost swear they were on Bridgestone SO-3s on 18" wheels. Don't know the wheels though.
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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Quote Originally Posted by miscreant
    I could almost swear they were on Bridgestone SO-3s on 18" wheels. Don't know the wheels though.
    I'm guessing the rear wheels must have been 9 or 10" width to make 275's work? The V would certainly look a bit cooler with wider back tires - albeit I understand it could be a degrade in handling...the Mallett photos do look pretty decent though.

    For those of you who have switched/will switch to non run flat tires, will you carry a spare or some slime and an air compressor?

    Bill

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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Wild...

    If you are looking for fixes for Wheel hop here are some suggestions people have tried (and had mixed results)

    1. Poly Rear bushngs (Mallet cars)
    2. Rear air bags (someone was going to try these on another forum- no response)
    3. Change the tires (remove the stiff sidewall runflats according to some has REDUCED the wheel hop but not removed it completely
    4. FG2 shocks (stiffer shocks may tighten up the rear end)

    I think as everyone has said this is a problem with most (if not all) Independent rear cars and comes down to a tradeoff between straight line speed and ability to handle the turns.

    Anyone know of any other POSSIBLE fixes? (A 6k kit from mallet is not the answer I am looking for)

    Reed

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