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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V General Discussion Discussion, My Rx8 Had no wheel hop? in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Originally Posted by miscreant Uhh... Simple answer: 395lbs of TQ compared to 159lbs of TQ! Enough said . yeah, i ...
  1. #16
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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Quote Originally Posted by miscreant
    Uhh...

    Simple answer: 395lbs of TQ compared to 159lbs of TQ! Enough said .

    yeah, i second that...this is a weird comparison

  2. #17
    GNSCOTT is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    ...So let me first ask why you have no more RX8. Is it because Mazda for the 2nd time got caught padding HP #'s and for the 2nd time had to offer a full refund for buyers who wanted to turn in their cars or was it the premature rust on every spot weld that occurs about a month after they are sold (RX8 owners look at the body when the door is open)?

    Now, Caddies #'s are attainable as is wheel hop and all. You have to know how to feather a clutch which most people who know even a little about drag racing can do. There has already been 1 member with little racing experience that ran a 13.3 (forget the mph), so your telling me a pro can't get that 13.1????

    To put it as simply as possible, it takes a much different suspension set up to make a 4000lb car take a turn like a 3200lb car. I'm not going to get into explaining torque and HP but simply torque is what makes your car move and where on the curve the torque is, and how much you have will also be determined into a suspension. When you have this much torque on the low end something has to give. That is why a Mercedes or Beemer is smoother when accelerating. They do not have the balls down low to be anything else and they try to make it up on the top end. Simply put, Low end torque is violent and Amercans like violence. You wouldn't beleive the engineering involved in making a car that weighs so much, that has that much hp and that much low end torque perform the way it does. That is why you need 5k rpms in a mazda to dump the clutch and spin the tires when you need half that in a V.

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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Quote Originally Posted by miscreant
    combination of super-high TQ, runflats, and IFS...All combine to cause a hop problem.
    did you mean IRS?

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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck C
    did you mean IRS?
    Err....ah.... ...yes.
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  5. #20
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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Quote Originally Posted by GNSCOTT
    Now, Caddies #'s are attainable as is wheel hop and all. You have to know how to feather a clutch which most people who know even a little about drag racing can do. There has already been 1 member with little racing experience that ran a 13.3 (forget the mph), so your telling me a pro can't get that 13.1????

    To put it as simply as possible, it takes a much different suspension set up to make a 4000lb car take a turn like a 3200lb car. I'm not going to get into explaining torque and HP but simply torque is what makes your car move and where on the curve the torque is, and how much you have will also be determined into a suspension. When you have this much torque on the low end something has to give. That is why a Mercedes or Beemer is smoother when accelerating. They do not have the balls down low to be anything else and they try to make it up on the top end. Simply put, Low end torque is violent and Amercans like violence. You wouldn't beleive the engineering involved in making a car that weighs so much, that has that much hp and that much low end torque perform the way it does. That is why you need 5k rpms in a mazda to dump the clutch and spin the tires when you need half that in a V.



  6. #21
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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    "[QUOTE=GNSCOTT]...So let me first ask why you have no more RX8. Is it because Mazda for the 2nd time got caught padding HP #'s and for the 2nd time had to offer a full refund for buyers who wanted to turn in their cars?"

    This is the HOW of what we did to get rid of the car, but not the why. I owned it for 10 days before the car went into limp mode and wouldn't come out. The dealership had it for 29 days trying to figure it out, and even two technicians from Japan came to work on the problem, having me take them out and thrash on the car trying to make it happen again - it would not. In the meantime I had a loaner RX8 that outperformed "my" RX8 from seat of the pants horsepower to gas milage. Clearly, the one we had purchased had problems. When it was decided that Mazda would not trade me the loaner for the barely broken in car I purchased, my wife and I elected to take advantage of the buy back offer. I found no problems and enjoyed the loaner vehicle a great deal (but it is no V - so those of you that are confused about the comparison can stop now).

    "Now, Caddies #'s are attainable as is wheel hop and all. You have to know how to feather a clutch which most people who know even a little about drag racing can do. There has already been 1 member with little racing experience that ran a 13.3 (forget the mph), so your telling me a pro can't get that 13.1????"

    I did not state that I don't know how to feather a clutch or don't know a thing about drag racing, albeit I'm no "pro". I've spent a fair amount of time at the strip on two wheels, three wheels, and four, and can feather the clutch - but oooohhhh - that smell!

    To put it as simply as possible, it takes a much different suspension set up to make a 4000lb car take a turn like a 3200lb car.

    Agreed.

    "I'm not going to get into explaining torque and HP but simply torque is what makes your car move and where on the curve the torque is, and how much you have will also be determined into a suspension."

    No explanation necessary, I know full well the difference and that what matters is the what the complete equation of all ratios in the drivetrain can transmit to the tarmac.

    "When you have this much torque on the low end something has to give. That is why a Mercedes or Beemer is smoother when accelerating."

    Disagree - something does not "HAVE" to give, it is just that something "is" giving. There are IRS vehicles with this much HP/TQ and more without wheel hop - it is possible - and I'm sure collectively there will be a solution.

    "Simply put, Low end torque is violent and Amercans like violence."

    Well, some types of violence - and ripsnortin' high revin' large displacement V8 pushrod mills is one of those types! RWD and tire shreddin' torque - bring it on.

    "You wouldn't beleive the engineering involved in making a car that weighs so much, that has that much hp and that much low end torque perform the way it does. That is why you need 5k rpms in a mazda to dump the clutch and spin the tires when you need half that in a V."

    Trust me, I would. I'm not suggesting Cadillac dropped the ball - only looking for a solution. I am no stranger to torque and horsepower building many a small block and large block Chevy in my life, powering everything from lightweight Chevy II's to heavy Impala's...but, admittedly, this is the first time in my life I have been fortunate enough to own something with power, class, performance and IRS.

    Bill

  7. #22
    Cal
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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    I will have 2 out of 4 of the things mentioned by mrbadass soon so I will report. GNSCOTT was the one who was putting the airbags I believe, I checked another forum and I think he said it didn't really help that much. He was going to play with it.


    I think GM is responsible for providing us with parts, at the very least, to help solve this problem. I looked up poly bushings and the most expensive set of 2 is like $30 so if anyone knows of any that will fit the V I will have some put in when they are installing my FG2 if possible. I don't drag race (much) but I'd like to cure the problem as well just in case any M3s want to play on the Shore.

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    Wink Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrbadss
    Wild...

    If you are looking for fixes for Wheel hop here are some suggestions people have tried (and had mixed results)

    1. Poly Rear bushngs (Mallet cars)
    2. Rear air bags (someone was going to try these on another forum- no response)
    3. Change the tires (remove the stiff sidewall runflats according to some has REDUCED the wheel hop but not removed it completely
    4. FG2 shocks (stiffer shocks may tighten up the rear end)

    I think as everyone has said this is a problem with most (if not all) Independent rear cars and comes down to a tradeoff between straight line speed and ability to handle the turns.

    Anyone know of any other POSSIBLE fixes? (A 6k kit from mallet is not the answer I am looking for)

    Reed
    Reed,

    Thanks for the reply and constructive suggestions.

    As to tires, maybe we could compile a list of those that have been tried unsuccessfully so that when I/we try something else we aren't trying something known not to work.

    The wheel hop is not always there - but seems to show up at the least convenient times

  9. #24
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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Friends don't let friends drive rice. Metric cars suck.

  10. #25
    JEM
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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Quote Originally Posted by GNSCOTT
    When you have this much torque on the low end something has to give. That is why a Mercedes or Beemer is smoother when accelerating. They do not have the balls down low to be anything else and they try to make it up on the top end.
    Actually, the E39 M5 pretty much matches the CTS-V for bottom-end torque (variable cam timing + independent-runner induction makes up for 45 less cubes) and the blower Benzes clobber all of 'em (especially the turbo V12s, which are right up there with Cummins diesels for dial-a-torque.)

    And that's without even getting into the turbodiesel V8 Bimmers and Benzes we don't get in the US.

    The M5 has minor wheel-hop. More chirp-chirp-chirp than THUMP-THUMP-THUMP. The Benzes don't appear to have any real problems - even tweaked to 600 ft/lb and sub-4-second 0-60 times.

  11. #26
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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVader
    Friends don't let friends drive rice. Metric cars suck.
    Metric cars - you mean like every current Cadillac?

  12. #27
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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Quote Originally Posted by JEM
    Metric cars - you mean like every current Cadillac?
    I think he meant asian cars...

    ...and yes friends don't let friends drive those.

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    Cal
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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Quote Originally Posted by JEM
    Actually, the E39 M5 pretty much matches the CTS-V for bottom-end torque (variable cam timing + independent-runner induction makes up for 45 less cubes) and the blower Benzes clobber all of 'em (especially the turbo V12s, which are right up there with Cummins diesels for dial-a-torque.)

    And that's without even getting into the turbodiesel V8 Bimmers and Benzes we don't get in the US.

    The M5 has minor wheel-hop. More chirp-chirp-chirp than THUMP-THUMP-THUMP. The Benzes don't appear to have any real problems - even tweaked to 600 ft/lb and sub-4-second 0-60 times.
    The Benzes are also computer-controlled autos (the AMGs at least, and I am guessing the others) so they can compensate in a fraction of a second to ensure smooth take-off. We have 2 notably slow human feet. I'm not saying that is the only reason, but you are also comparing a decades-of-refinement design to a car that is 2 months old. I think we have to be a little more patient with GMPD since they have already come out with 3-4 accessories. More cannot be far behind, as well as a fix for this. The fact that they send customers signed posters (other thread) and call us back is pretty impressive in itself, in my opinion.

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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    I still forget to point out that the CTS-V features a Nivomat rear shock. For anyone who is familiar with Sachs'/Boge's Nivomats, they are not *that* great of a shock, and I *wonder* if the inherent "self-adjusting" nature of the Nivomat doesn't lead to some serious PLANTING problems.
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    GNSCOTT is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: My Rx8 Had no wheel hop?

    Can't figure out the quote feature so please excuse.

    First what is the M5's torque curve? I'm sure it is alot smoother than the V's. Not a BMW expert in the least, but don't they rev higher and with the V being faster would leave me to beleive the V's torque comes on quicker. What other car has the same weight/torque/hp, can handle like a V and gets no wheelhop with an IRS? Even M5's, ZO6's and Vipers get wheel hop occasionally.

    I did test the air bags and they helped a little, but not emough to warrant their use. I am still waiting to get a lift to put a spacer in there to take up more room to see if that helps. I know it will but the question is will it be enough.

    Something does have to give. Caddy can eliminate the wheel hop if they want to add stiffer bushings, maybe coil overs, but it will upset the ride. Still waiting for more people to try non run flat tires. i have heard of 2 doing it and eliminating almost all of it. I had 100% hop before the bags, now its about 90%.

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